I feel like starting an argument

[Crazy Finn]

I think there is another trend to look at regarding Bach.

It's interesting that the decline of several of the companies that were big when Bach was a much smaller outfit in New York (and later in Mt. Vernon, to some degree) seems to coincide with with Bach's rise.

Conn and Olds were pretty big in the pre-Bach era. It's thought that Conn's quality dropped when they moved production to Abilene (late 60's / early 70's). Similarly, most agree that Olds' quality also declined starting at the beginning of the 70's.

The decline in quality by these companies is also accompanied by Bach's move to Elkhart in 1965 (I think) where production greatly increased.

Did the decline of quality of those brands allow Bach to expand it's share of the band market? Did Bach's expansion force the others into production that could not maintain their quality? Was mismanagement by Bach's competitors a key factor in it's rise? I suspect that the real answer is some combination of all of these - and probably some others I didn't mention and probably am not aware of. There's got to be some relationship between all these events.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[VetPsychWars]

Hey...

You might have something.

Bach moves to Elkhart, hires workers... what happens to Conn?

What happened to Blessing and Martin in this time frame as well?

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

[Crazy Finn]

[p76]

Well I have read on TH and on other sites that, for example, Olds decided to move "downmarket" and concentrate on student horns in the 70s which unfortunately for them co-incided with two things -

Yamaha getting serious (and cheap)

Increasing affluence meant that amateur players could attain a professional trumpet.

So, maybe they were losing at both ends - people after cheap and cheerful went Japanese, and those who wanted the top end went for the (perceived) quality of Bach? Just a thought.

You can kind of see it happening to Yamaha now - Jupiter and other Taiwanese/Chinese brands are producing student horns for cheaper money, and in the age of the internet, niche manufacturers (e.g. Lawler, Eclipse, Taylor etc.), are skimming the cream off the top. Yamaha gets squeezed in the middle.

Meanwhile Bach has had it's troubles too - it will be interesting to see if their hold over certain areas of trumpet-dom continues into the future. I actually have my doubts - if all the stories we hear about their drop in quality are true, they will lose their mantle no doubt, especially if they become seen as more marketing than skilled workmanship.

And then where does that leave American trumpets? Getzen and Kanstul, come on down!
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[Crazy Finn]

[p76]

Fair enough, I'm not in the U.S., so I bow to your local knowledge, and you are right of course, what one sees on TH is not a reflection of the real world.....

It's probably pretty similar here - Bach and Yamaha rule the roost, but Jupiter has made big inroads at the lower end of the market.

I guess it's a little bit like the pharmaceutical industry - if you lock in the "doctor" (band director / teacher), you're on a winner.

Of course here in OZ, the fact that James Morrison was a Yamaha artist helped them - we even have a James Morrison version of the 6335 horn.

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[Crazy Finn]

No - I don't have any special knowledge. I've just been around a bit in the American band world - at least in MN, ND, and WI.

I didn't notice you were from OZ, so that's cool. It's quite possible that your trumpet market profile is a bit different down there. I'm sure it's much easier to pick up a Bach here, even in rural WI, than in Australia. So, it's not surprising that Yamaha is much more of a presence, and was so earlier, than in the US.

It's quite possible that Jupiter will follow in Yamaha's footsteps, at some point, market and quality-wise. It's been a few years since I've played one. Yamaha's definitely left the door open in the student horn market for several years with it's higher prices.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[p76]

Jupiter have certainly upped their quality in the last few years.

The market is certainly more limited here, that's for sure. Even in capital cities it can be hard to find horns. I am two hours from OZ's second biggest city, Melbourne, with approx 4m people, and there is no one who sells Schilke, for example, or Kanstul - but I can try a Shagerl.

There are two big music store chains in Melbourne, Allans, and Billy Hyde. Billy Hyde stocks Bach, and Allans stock Yamaha, and so it goes....

There are a couple of other smaller stores that stock Bach and Yamaha together.

I know in the 70s, when I was a student, most professional players purchased horns when they were in the US. It's not quite that bad now, but yes, we are impoverished in some ways over here when it comes to choice. Luckily I have a sister living in the US, so I get the occasional chance to visit trumpet nirvana.

Getting back to the topic though - it is probably easier to pick up a Yamaha here than a Bach, but there are still a lot of Bachs, but probably more Strads in proportion to their lower models than in the US.
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[Crazy Finn]

[p76]

I think the XO is Jupiter's top line horn. I've only played their student model, and.... it's definitely a student model.

I guess we are a pretty small market - the entire population of our country is only 22 million people, and who knows what proportion are enlightened....

Shagerl's are really nice horns, but $$$ (Like 4-5000).

I'm not going to bother with a Bach - tried a Strad (37) recently, and it was nice. But not nicer than my Yamahas, and not even close to the Selmer Radial I picked up at the time.

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[Elle]

[p76]

[James B. Quick]

p76:

[p76]

[Crazy Finn]

[James B. Quick]

Crazy Finn:

[Crazy Finn]

[RandyTX]

You mean parents don't encourage them to have a life anymore apart from the video games and TV.
_________________
"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."

[Crazy Finn]

[VetPsychWars]