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jazztrumpeter95 Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2011 Posts: 220 Location: Bumf**k NH
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject: Does anybody make a heavy weight lead horn? |
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Okay so you know the question. The reason I'm asking is because I love horns with the big sheet bracing and everything but I like to play high notes..... anything?
Sam |
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AJCarter Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2007 Posts: 1280 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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pretty sure if you have the chops, ANY horn is a lead horn. Rashawn Ross plays a Monette and there are vids of him screeching out triple E's. I like my Bach 72 for lead playing and it's big and heavy enough for me. _________________ (List horns here) |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Does anybody make a heavy weight lead horn? |
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jazztrumpeter95 wrote: | Okay so you know the question. The reason I'm asking is because I love horns with the big sheet bracing and everything... |
Why? Because you like how they look or how they play? _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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CalicchioMan Veteran Member
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 336 Location: Florida
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: Heavyweight lead trumpet |
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I have a Carol 766r Heavy Legend in the marketplace for sale. It has a very nice upper register.... _________________ Yamaha 8310ZII
Yamaha 631G Flugelhorn
Mendini Superbone
Pickett Mouthpieces |
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tom turner Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6648 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Someone will be glad to make you one. Generally the heavy horns take more effort to "light 'em up," and they generally don't cut through with the "right" amount of sizzle like one is trained to hear and expect when playing the lead book . . . thus a long night sometimes, as one tries subconsciously to compensate.
As always, there are always players who make it happen, but I imagine most of these players eventually move to more efficient equipment.
Oh . . . did I mention . . . someone will be glad to make you one! _________________ Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3628
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Does anybody make a heavy weight lead horn? |
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jazztrumpeter95 wrote: | Okay so you know the question. The reason I'm asking is because I love horns with the big sheet bracing and everything but I like to play high notes..... anything?
Sam |
Heavy weight lead horn? Conn Connstellation 38B or 36B |
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Roberts-K Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Aug 2010 Posts: 435 Location: Chattanooga,TN
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: Does anybody make a heavy weight lead horn? |
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That is my question about the efficiency thing we are told about a lot of heavier instruments. If they are more efficient, why do you have to work harder to play them? I put one of the mouthpiece weights on my mouthpiece when they came out years ago and it liked to have killed me! Half of my endurance gone. Was it me or does weight mean more work?! _________________ 2010 Lawler 25th C7 XL
Lalwer LF-1 Flugel |
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tom turner Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6648 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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LOL . . .
Back in '72 the issue trumpets at the Armed Forces School of Music in Norfolk were Connstellations and yeah . . . those smaller bore nickle silver horns were both TOUGH and HEAVY!
We joked that we could rap the bell against one of the concrete block walls and probably not dent one!
Ironically, though I played with a Connstellation mouthpiece during that era of my life and loved it, I never cared for the Connstellation trumpets at all . . . though many folks liked 'em then and like 'em now. Just a totally different blow than I like, but otherwise a fine trumpet of course.
T.
PS: I got to play a BRAND NEW Connstellation back in 2001 . . . a collector had found a new, unsold one that he purchased from "back in the day" that still had all the little shop tags and stuff in it. It still played just as I remembered it . . . stuffy and tight for me . . . but it was so nice to see a new, vintage one in perfect condition. _________________ Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet |
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zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Faddis's custom schilke is heavy as all hell. _________________ ~Zack
Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
Jazz Piece: Custom Curry TC
Legit Piece: Yamaha Shew Jazz (18 Drill) |
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J_Mase Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2010 Posts: 525
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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Some guys can play lead very effectively on heavier gauge horns, but as a personal failure to do so taught me a few years ago...
Don't try to do it, if you can't. I can't. I don't. I failed. Hard. _________________ Jeff Mason |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:13 am Post subject: |
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My two horns are pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum. My Bugle is made for marching, it's robust, well made and tough. My Trumpet is fairly lightweight. Both have large bores (bugle .470, trumpet .468). What I have found is a heavier horn allows you to more easily keep the mellow stuff, mellow, where the lightweight horn just want's to sizzle ! Since I'm a one mouthpiece player, I prefer the heavier horn. I feel it gives me more tonal control. My Kanstul Bugle is great for this. I like to say its sort of like a high performance automobile. Great sound as you accelerate, but when you mash the go pedal... LOOK OUT !!! _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:13 am Post subject: |
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A horn made of lead would sure be heavy, probably toxic too. I doubt it would sound very good though. But like Tom says, I'm sure you could find someone to make it for you! _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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mcamilleri Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 2076 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:24 am Post subject: |
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That was my first impression also and I had to read it twice. Seriously though, Schilke made a lead bell for some experiments, so if you really want a bell made of lead you could get one...
"At the other extreme was the lead bell. This bell, if rapped with your knuckle, emitted an extremely dead sound like rapping on a piece of wood. However the sound that emanated when it was blown was extremely brilliant, brilliant to the point of being mechanical."
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Brass%20Clinic.html
Michael _________________ Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist |
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trumpetangel Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 130
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:49 am Post subject: Re: Does anybody make a heavy weight lead horn? |
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plankowner110 wrote: | jazztrumpeter95 wrote: | Okay so you know the question. The reason I'm asking is because I love horns with the big sheet bracing and everything but I like to play high notes..... anything?
Sam |
Heavy weight lead horn? Conn Connstellation 38B or 36B |
I've been playng a 36B for a couple of months now and love it. It is really easy to play and has a nice warm and very distinctive sound in the middle and low register,the upper register is great too.I would not say it is heavy weight, about as heavy as a regular Bach 37. |
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Retlaw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 3263 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:11 am Post subject: |
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Heavyweight and lead don't seem to go together for me but if you want "cool".... get this. http://www.taylortrumpets.com/chicago_custom.html
Walter _________________ "Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice." |
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KanstulBrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 Posts: 714 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:30 am Post subject: |
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The Kanstul Model 1500-A qualifies as a heavyweight lead trumpet. It has excellent projection, when necessary, over a large ensemble yet despite the added mass, the Model 1500-A responds quite easily at any dynamic level. It's a deceptively efficient and easy-blowing trumpet, not just heavy for heavy's sake.
In my opinion, the unweighted tuning slide is more appropriate for the lead player.
Alex Cabrera toured with both Lenny Kravitz and James Brown with this horn. _________________ Charles G Hargett
Brass Industry Consultant
(Kanstul, Shires, BAC, Benge) |
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Matthew Anklan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1085 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Be careful. You might get what you wish for.
My advice...take a clue from what the most respected lead players play, and you'll notice not any of them play horns with a lot of sheet bracing, etc. I know several lead players that like to play more medium weight horns, myself included, but NOT like I think you have in mind. _________________ Matthew Anklan
www.matthewanklan.com |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Couldn't resist. A lead player using one of the past's heavyweight horns.
Tom
_________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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A heavy weight lead trumpet? Maybe the Hurricane!
A really heavy horn designed for lead - they say -, with an awsome look.
Very good things have been said about this brand in a recent thread, I can't say anything else. _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD. |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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What you want is a trumpet with the leadpipe and main tuning slide and the inside and outside tuning slide tubes on the main slide in .029 inch thick or thicker, heavy receiver, standard weight valve assembly, light weight bell and bracing that is at least 50% heavier then standard. I would use nickel for all the plumbing on the right hand side the leadpipe, the inside and outside tuning slides, the crook on the main slide etc........ I would in this case use a light weight gold brass bell. The 50% heavier bracing still conventional in design and the thicker walls for the tubing would make up for the light weight bell as far as projection is concerned. The light weight bell would make sure you had that sizzle with out having to hit ffff to get the bell to light up and start dancing. The standard weight valve assembly is for feedback you want to have some when playing lead and in this case a heavy valve assembly might hurt you a bit in spite of improved efficiency!
I do not know if you have ever played a heavy MP or not. When playing a heavy horn it is a lot like playing a Bach MEgatone for instance.....People will tell yout hey are dead blah blah blah..........They are not dead in front of the bell though.......They greatly lessen your feedback to your lips so if that is how you make your adjustments then you will need to spend a lot of time getting used to one. The same thing is true of heavy horns the more mass you add to them assuming you do it smartly the more energy you can get out of the horn. The problem is that you lose feedback in your hands and lips compared to a lighter horn! On top of that the heavier you make a resonator the harder you have to strike it to get it to ring on a trumpet we call that sizzle. An ultra light weight horn with a bell so thin that you can make it ripple by running your finger's across it might start to light up, dance, sizzle at ff to fff but some heavy copper belled beast might not start to light up and sizzle until ffff and that can make a huge difference especially as the size of the venue increase's or decreases!
I find it almost routine that as an artist or in this case a trumpet player get's older and loses more and more hearing they tend to gravitate towards lighter horns!Why??? Feedback!!! As they lose some of their ability to hear what is going on behind the bell they compensate with what they can feel through their hands and through their lips! I have also noticed some things pertaining to how much mic time an artist see's and the size of their venue's and relationships to what weight horn they prefer but that is another ball of wax for another time!
If I was going to build a lead horn like what I think you want I would prob. start with a Bach 43 bell light weight in gold brass. I would use a Carol valve assembly or if you wanted American find a horn builder that Getzen will actually sell a valve assembly too with out a song and dance. Both Carol and Getzen have a nice distribution of mass and no monel. The key though is really going to be in getting the leadpipe, main tuning slide and all associated plumbing as thick as you can on that right hand side of the horn. No need for sheet bracing J. Landress Brass and Ken Larson both make hand forged Z/S bracing that is heavy enough to do what needs to be done. Jason Harrelson has a new tuning slide for Bach's that he is machining from solid plate and brazing together so that wrinkles inside and outside the tubing is not a limiting factor in how thick one can go for tuning slides!
Right now I do not know of anyone in the market place making .029 thick or thicker leadpipes except the Old Calichio ones from long ago. Blessing's new pro model has a main tuning slide that is .029 thick and has the same shape and the old ML-1. Hope this helps someone!
Sorry not on much been working my hands to the bone just trying to keep my 3 boys feed and such! _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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