Slow valves...what to do?

[JazzCatDRP]

Hey all, I recently picked up a secondhand Harrelson Bravura. By all accounts this horn was taken care of extremely well, and is a fantastic player except for one thing: the valves on it get quite slow on the upstroke. The valves look very clean, as well as the casings. I've tried both Al Cass oil and Ultra Pure, cleaning very thorougly between the two. A thorough cleaning does seem to fix the problem for a few hours before it returns. In addition, oiling the valves does fix the problem for about 5-10 minutes, but then they need oiled again.

Since noticing the problem, I've taken special care to watch my finger position to ensure I am going straight up and down on the valves, and that seems to have little effect on the stickiness in playing situations. Though if I just quickly thump the valve down over and over while the horn's in my lap, I can't seem to duplicate the problem. If I apply pressure just slightly left or right, it sticks. It's almost as if the horn is WAY more sensitive to my finger position than any of my other horns, including a Bach, Holton, Committee, and Yamaha flugel.

I've got a good repairman that I'm going to have take a look at it in a few weeks when I get back to town, but in the meantime, does anyone have any ideas?

[cheiden]

I've had two very different problems with valves, slow and sticky. These two symptoms frequently have very different solutions. If slow is the problem then using really light oils, as you have, often helps. If sticky is the problem then the really light oils can actually work against you. In this case I'd advise the less intuitive solution of trying a heavier oil. I'm have good luck with T2 for most of my instruments.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[HERMOKIWI]

I have a 1956 Conn Connstellation 38B that had the same basic problem. The horn is in pristine original condition and the valves look like new, yet the first valve would seem to drag on the upstroke. Oiling the valve would improve the situation but only for a few minutes. This was very perplexing since there did not seem to be any rational explanation.

Then I considered the possibility that the problem was not the valve surface, that the problem was the valve guide. So I oiled the path on the valve where the valve guide moves and that fixed the problem. Maybe you have a similar issue. It's worth a try to focus on oiling the path of the valve guides as an additional step in oiling the valves.
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HERMOKIWI

[PakWaan]

Although you will probably get quite a few suggestions ( do a search for slow or sticky and you can save some time) I will submit that the final resolution, the one that will really work, is a valve overhaul. Try Steve Winans at Dr Valve.

I have three kinds of horns -

1. Ones with Getzen valves which work perfectly and always will.

2. Ones with Bauerfeind valves which work perfectly and probably always will.

3. All the rest with their Monel/other valves which I have already had to send to Dr Valve or will have to in the future.
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Taylor Chicago Standard • Getzen 900 Eterna Classic • Yamaha 731 flugelhorn
--- Sold everything else ---

[JonB]

I have a problem with just my third valve on my Getzen because I have a horrendous habit of resting my third finger on the 3rd valve cap in front of the valve stem whenever I don't have to use it. As a result, the third valve gets skewed. Awful.
_________________
Jon
Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS

[Maarten van Weverwijk]

This solved many of my slow/sticky valve problems (Warburton Clean Stroke):
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98130

MvW.

[etc-etc]

It could also be the gunk in the tubes between the valves. If you clean the valve surface and then reoil, valve will start working fine. However, the valve will slow down once the gunk seeps into the friction area.

[carltrumpet]

Could be that the valves have worn a certain way. Maybe, for example, the previous owner had a tendency to push the valves down at an angle, causing them to hang when you push them down straight. So, oiling them helps at first, but after a few hours, the friction overpowers the effects of the oil.

OR...... maybe the springs are just getting old and saggy.

I like the valve guide suggestion of another poster. I never would have thought of that. Also, the suggestion of gunk in the tubes *between* the valves. That's happened to me (but usually, the opposite: The gunky valves gunking up the tubes

[Brad361]

[shofarguy]

There is one thing you might try. I had a similar problem occur on my Benge. I was using LaTromba oil (not T2) which had silicone in it. The silicone began to build up on the pistons and casings until, after 2 bottles, I was having the problem you describe.

I washed the horn several times to no avail. I tried several oils that had worked previously. Still no relief. What did work in the end was to wash all parts of the horn and them soak them for 5 minutes in white vinegar, then wash them again in dish soap to neutralize the vinegar acid.

I use only high quality petroleum based oils now like H2Oil, Zaja, Blue Juice and, my favorite, Flip Oakes Valve oil. No more gumminess.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Jon Arnold]

I would definitely have your repairiman look at the horn.

[Capt.Kirk]

Go to Walmart and pick up a gallon of Castrol Super Clean or to a part store and get Purple engine Degreaser. Take a glass that will hold all three valves put about 3 onces of Super Clean in the glass then fill with hot water. Then take apart your valves wash them with dish soap first and wipe off then put your valves in this and let them soak for about 15 minutes. Wipe them off with a towel then rinse and wipe dry. Dip your bore mop in this solution and use it to clean the inside of each bore. I normally clean my entire trumpet in about 2 cups of this stuff with enough warm water in the tub to almost cover the bell with the trumpet lieing on a towel on it's side in the tub taken apart.

I do not know what type of guides his trumpets use but springs and guides never hurt either.

The above is commonly used to degrease engines and automotive parts so it will remove most anything. When in doubt though like always dissolves like so to get rid of troublesome hydrocarbons more of the same is usually a good idea in this case Naptha or lighter fluid on a paper towel forced through he valve bore with a wooden or plastic dowel.

409 is much like Super Clean only much much weaker same thing for Simple Green very similar formula only weaker!

Once you get it clean the trick is keeping it clean! I do not have all this valve issues because I do not let my valves get dirty ever! It is unfortunate but most people just keep dumbing valve oil on top of valve oil until they start to get flaky then all of a sudden it becomes important to try to figure out what is wrong! TO me that is like not changing your engine oil until you have sludge then trying to clean the sludge out when you should have never let it happen in the first place! In your case I understand it is a secondhand horn! I have run into this with almost every single ebay horn I have bought and it is always about too much junk built up inside the bore and in the pores of the monel valve face!

If all else fails try a 50/50 mix of blue juice and 3in1 oil. I had this over the course of month clean out so much junk from the valve bore and valve face I was stunned! Each night I wiped the valves down and re-oil and for a month I got grayish black junk off the valves then it stped just producing any gray stuff and the problem was fixed! No more valve issue's.3in1 by itself is far too thick and I am guessing it is main thing doing the cleaning since Blue Juice is well known for leaving deposits behind and plugging stuff up! You could probably mix the 3in1 with Alcass Fast and get the same effect.........Just oil like normal and each day wipe with a white paper towel and reoil and use...When you stop getting silver gray stuff on the tissue you will know it is clean. This method has no solvents or detergents involved but it took a month for it to do it's job. Keep in mind thehorn I did that on was a 1946 Holton and had been had already been cleaned really well when I got it off ebay!

Two last things acid dip at local shop or ultra sonic cleaning either of these should like wise fix the problem if it is one of oxidation and crud not letting the oil do it's job!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[Brad361]

[Bob Stevenson]

1) Really clean instrument giving particular attention to the connecting tubes between the valves.

2) Fit stronger valve springs and see if they improve valve return.

3) Speak to the maker who is a 'bespoke' operator and will be interested and helpful even tho' this is a secondhand instrument.

4) If 1 to 3 don't help, sell it on.

[dr_trumpet]

1. Call Jason Harrelson and ask what he advises. He made the horn, he should be able to give you some guidance as to what the issue might be.

2. If that fails, have the horn ultrasonically chemically cleaned, and see if that helps.

3. If the above fails, call Harrelson again, and ask if he has time for you to send it to him and have it gone over. Again, the original maker on a horn of this value would be your best source of a fix.

4. If that fails, call Dr. Valve, Bob Frost in Indianapolis, maybe Charlie Melk. They are valve gurus, and if they can't fix it, you may have found the reason the horn was available.

5. If all fails, sell the horn and move on. Lots of great horns out there, and (regardless of make, which in this instance just gives me more reason to find a fix, on an outstanding custom horn made by a well-respected maker) this may be time to punt. If you do sell, let us know on here. Lots of potential buyers (not me, but other). Someone will take a shot at it.

Good luck!
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music

[trpthrld]

The suggestion to call Jason & ask him is right on the mark.

and...this stuff seems to work pretty well, too...

[ILBBACH]

BLUE JUICE BLUE JUICE BLUE JUICE!!!!

[trumpet addict]

Check the valves them selves and see if there is any streaking on them, that would be due to incorrect hand position, possibly by the previous owner. Take it to the shop and have the repair man grind open the valve casing a little more. then use extra care with your hand position. It would seem that an older horn would need thinner oil, but I'm not too familiar with your brand. You might try thicker oil, like hetmans.

[PakWaan]

[trumpet addict]