Flugelhorn: sharp E and A

abundrefo · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:40 am Post subject: Flugelhorn: sharp E and A

Hi,

I used to play a Yamaha 635ST and now I recently bought an Adams F1, and I've been playing a very sharp first line E and a sharp A above it .

But what intrigued me is the fact that there is a HUGE difference in tuning between this first line E played with valves #1,#2 compared to the alternate position, valve #3. The #1,#2 combination is considerably sharper.

With the Adams, there is a circular mark on the mouthpipe at around 0.40" (1cm aprox.) right after the tip where the mouthpiece goes. So I pull mouthpipe and I stop pulling when I get just a little bit after that mark. I don't want to pull it a lot more because notes below low C would get flat.

It's probably my way of playing it but I'd like to ask you guys what you think about it.

Thank you.

zaferis · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:17 am Post subject:

Could be many things going on.

Do you have the correct shank-ed mouthpiece for the Flugel?.. there 3 common Flugel mouhtpiece shanks, the wrong one can have an impact on pitch.

I'd first work on finding the sweet spot for your tuning slide (how far you pull the leadpipe-forget about that circular mark).
Try doing some blind tuning, close your eyes, play some random things, bend some notes then settle on/center a note, THEN look at the tuner. I like tuning to a conceert A - 2nd valve B on most trumpets I find it is less slippery than an open note and has a more defined "slot".
Find the best position for the slide - where most notes are closest-a compromise, then you'll have to adjust the rest by ear.
Flugels are notorious for pitch problems, but in my experience the Adams Flugels are excellent so, your issue surprises me.

Then if those two notes are sharp, which 1&2 valve combinations generally are, try playing them 3rd valve, or pull the first valve slide a little.

Finally work on your "ear".. play slow scales and studies with a tuner AND then some drone work.. This will also teach your chops where the notes sit.
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abundrefo · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:39 am Post subject:

dstdenis · Last edited by dstdenis on Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total

iiipopes · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 566

On a 3-valve instrument, the third valve is usually made long to minimize the necessary lipping down or kicking out slides for 2+3 and 1+3.

Also on a 3-valve instrument, valves 1 and 2 are usually made pretty close to in tune, individually, with the 1st valve sometimes being slightly longer.

So the reason 1+2 is sharper than 3 alone is that 3 is long, and 1+2 are actually shorter than what the length needed for 3 half-steps are, since each half step is geometric and takes progressively longer tubing than the simple linear addition of tubing. You will note the first valve circuit is a tad longer than twice the length of the second valve circuit for this reason.
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abundrefo · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:46 am Post subject:

Richard III · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:52 am Post subject:

I play an Adams F1. It has the best intonation of any flugelhorn I've ever tried. It is pretty right on with all notes to above high C. I've experimented with many mouthpieces and have settled on the Curry line. I have the FL, FLM, FLJ and the FLD. The FL has the best slotting and intonation, but none of the others are bad. The FLD is a slight bit more work but also slots really well. The FLM is a bit slippery but the range is very easy. The FLJ is kind of different and reminds me a bit of the Shew mouthpiece. I'm going to work with it a bit more and see what it can do.
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abundrefo · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:11 am Post subject:

Flugelnut · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:28 am Post subject:

OP: did you mention your issue with the Adams people, and if so, what was their response?

abundrefo · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:31 am Post subject:

Flugelnut · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:44 am Post subject:

Thanks, please let us know what they say.

abundrefo · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject:

Ok, I did a few more tests and I believe I was initially influenced by the circular mark on the mouthpipe, as if I needed to stop right there in order to make the flugelhorn behave the way it should behave.

So I took the mouthpiece that allowed me to play lower on the pitch (my ACB MV3CF), played long note scales looking at a few different tuners and here is where I felt the mouthpipe should be. I pulled it and stopped at 0.80" (2cm), roughly.

Intonation got a lot better but:

- 1. I got used to the resistance of the blow when I pulled the mouthpipe till right about where the circular mark is. This picture shows that I'm now pulling it twice as much. So I need to practice a bit more tomorrow.

- 2. It seems the Adams F1 is more mouthpiece sensitive (intonation-wise) than my Yamaha 635ST. With my Pierre Dutot signature mouthpiece I need do pull the mouthpipe even more and the flugel resistance starts to feel weird. Too bad the ACB MV3CF mouthpiece plays a bit too bright with this flugel.

Richard III · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:27 pm Post subject:

I found slight differences in tuning with the different mouthpieces on the F1. Prior to the Adams I was using a Jupiter copy of the Yamaha. That flugelhorn as most others I tried felt really stuffy above the staff and had somewhat wonky intonation up there. With the Adams, either the F1 or F2, those problems went away.

It could also be the way you are blowing. With my F1 it takes almost no air anywhere from very low to high. And the sound is very consistent.
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Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpiece: Marcinkiewicz CG Personal 16 Throat

Richard III · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:28 pm Post subject:

Oh, and as I've been told, the F1 is probably the brightest flugelhorn you can buy.
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Richard

Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpiece: Marcinkiewicz CG Personal 16 Throat

cheiden · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:30 pm Post subject:

You say you used to play a different flugle before you got the Adams. Was there a break in your flugel playing? When I'm away from the flugel for too long I inevitably resort to playing too high in the slot, pulling my tuning pipe out too far, making the horn play odd and the intonation dodgy. When I reacclimate, the tuning pipe gets pushed in a bit and everything lines up and then the blow and intonation are much improved.
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abundrefo · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:41 pm Post subject:

abundrefo · Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:32 am Post subject:

Small update:
Today I adjusted the resistance that I had lost with the new position of the mouthpipe by switching from Hetman 1 to Yamaha Regular oil, which is a bit thicker but still thinner than Hetman 2. It's right in the middle and now my flugel doesn't feel that weird anymore.

adagiotrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 919

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6210

This Courtois flugelhorn has a trigger on the 1st valve, but nothing on the 3rd:

abundrefo · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:33 am Post subject: