Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:51 am Post subject: endurance while improvising
My endurance when I play a church gig or lead in a big band, etc, is good. I'm not Mike Williams but I can put it out for a while, as long as I don't do any improvising. This is a problem cause that's what I do the most! I try to be a Jazz player that is able to play some lead, and not the other way around.
So my problem is that when I'm playing small group, my endurance is not what I want it to be. The same goes for when I'm practicing. If I'm doing my practice routine, endurance is not a problem. But when I start practicing "music", I'm tired after 10 min.
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:21 am Post subject: Re: endurance while improvising
2-5-1 wrote:
My endurance when I play a church gig or lead in a big band, etc, is good. I'm not Mike Williams but I can put it out for a while, as long as I don't do any improvising. This is a problem cause that's what I do the most! I try to be a Jazz player that is able to play some lead, and not the other way around.
So my problem is that when I'm playing small group, my endurance is not what I want it to be. The same goes for when I'm practicing. If I'm doing my practice routine, endurance is not a problem. But when I start practicing "music", I'm tired after 10 min.
Any suggestions fellow Reinhardt brethern?
You're singing my song, Mike! This is the one thing that has perplexed me ever since 1979 or so.
Balance is where the answer lies. Doc told me that every playing/practice day needs to balance out the following areas: something high, something low, something tongued, something slurred, something loud, something soft, some multiple tonguing, some compression and some sustained (cantabile) work.
He also told me that if I wasn't maintaining a solid four-legs of the inner embouchure that my jazz legato-tonguing was going to tear down everything that I'd been trying to build up.
Now, even though I know that the answer lies somewhere in the realm of balance, I can also tell you that (for me) it's not easy to find that balance.
And the endurance required to improvise is way beyond what it takes to play written parts. Doc told me that the one thing that cuts into my endurance the most is my conception. I asked him what he meant by that, and he said, "Imagine if you had the chops to play anything you wanted to." I realized then that my conception (and often my ego) was demanding more of my chops than I had built up, so I was shooting myself in the foot within the first few minutes of almost every improvisation.
You can join me in my continuing search for that balance . . . I think Chris LaBarbera has found it, by the way. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz
Joined: 12 Dec 2009 Posts: 478 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:33 am Post subject:
I find I run into this problem any time I'm not working on practicing a lot of improvisation/solo material. But when I'm practicing a lot, and practicing improvising, it improves immensely and I don't feel much of a distinction.
I think it's just much easier to be less efficient when you're improvising: so much of your brain power goes to making the music in the moment that you start breathing less deeply, being less attentive to when you need to rest, less efficient with technique in terms of pivot and sound production, playing with more tension in general (or maybe not enough tension where it counts) etc.
For instance, if your ears aren't aligned with what you're playing, and you're chipping notes, or muscling your chops to get the notes to come out when you're not chipping them, it would make sense that you're getting tired much faster than when you're playing melodic material you're familiar with and can just "let sing".
That's just my impression of it, however. Not a scientific opinion by any means!
I'm not a Reinhardt guy, but I have this problem too (like you guys, only when improvising).
For me, thinking about keeping a "firm" embouchure has helped - probably pretty similar to Rich's mention of the "four legs of the inner embouchure." _________________ Jonathan Vieker
The Lip Rip Blues
My ongoing recovery from a torn lip muscle, updated regularly!
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 478 Location: Hamilton, Montana
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:16 am Post subject:
Quote:
So my problem is that when I'm playing small group, my endurance is not what I want it to be. The same goes for when I'm practicing. If I'm doing my practice routine, endurance is not a problem. But when I start practicing "music", I'm tired after 10 min.
For me it is the opposite. I've always played better if I play up and down the horn.....between low G and G above high C. Most of my career has been spent faking tunes with small combos. After a couple of tunes I get into the groove and it feels easy. It is harder for me to find the groove if I'm reading a part that tends to stay in the same range...especially if it is a lower part.
Endurance is also better when I get in the groove. With combo gigs rest periods are built in when others solo. When practicing you have to make sure you rest enough. I count the measures of an exercise and pencil that number at the top of the page to make sure I count enough rests. When I was in college Mendez told me he did this.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:46 am Post subject: Re: endurance while improvising
BeboppinFool wrote:
2-5-1 wrote:
My endurance when I play a church gig or lead in a big band, etc, is good. I'm not Mike Williams but I can put it out for a while, as long as I don't do any improvising. This is a problem cause that's what I do the most! I try to be a Jazz player that is able to play some lead, and not the other way around.
So my problem is that when I'm playing small group, my endurance is not what I want it to be. The same goes for when I'm practicing. If I'm doing my practice routine, endurance is not a problem. But when I start practicing "music", I'm tired after 10 min.
Any suggestions fellow Reinhardt brethern?
You're singing my song, Mike! This is the one thing that has perplexed me ever since 1979 or so.
Balance is where the answer lies. Doc told me that every playing/practice day needs to balance out the following areas: something high, something low, something tongued, something slurred, something loud, something soft, some multiple tonguing, some compression and some sustained (cantabile) work.
He also told me that if I wasn't maintaining a solid four-legs of the inner embouchure that my jazz legato-tonguing was going to tear down everything that I'd been trying to build up.
Now, even though I know that the answer lies somewhere in the realm of balance, I can also tell you that (for me) it's not easy to find that balance.
And the endurance required to improvise is way beyond what it takes to play written parts. Doc told me that the one thing that cuts into my endurance the most is my conception. I asked him what he meant by that, and he said, "Imagine if you had the chops to play anything you wanted to." I realized then that my conception (and often my ego) was demanding more of my chops than I had built up, so I was shooting myself in the foot within the first few minutes of almost every improvisation.
You can join me in my continuing search for that balance . . . I think Chris LaBarbera has found it, by the way.
I was hoping you'd chime in Rich.
I think I know what you mean about balance. Recently I found that I wasn't doing enough single and multiple tonguing in my routine, as I had been working on that stuff a lot a couple months ago. Anyway, I did some drills, repeated them, etc. That night at the gig, my chops felt invincible, so I've been making a point of doing a lot of tonguing early on in my day.
For me the problem really arises when I'm the only horn player, and worse yet, where there's no piano player (I often play piano-less).
A lot of it is probably my conception getting in the way as you say Rich. I like to play all over the horn, and If I don't think about pacing, my face is toast by the end of an hour set. _________________ www.mikesailorsmusic.com
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:30 am Post subject:
Same problem here - great thread. It's threads like these where I feel I've always picked up some good tips.
One thing I'll offer in the way of a tip is Warburton's P.E.T.E. The little tool you stick in your mouth and do two exercises with? I've had one for about a month and it has already made a significant difference in my lasting power and range. For me, though, I do a tremendous amount of driving for work and the pete is a big help. I recall reading something by one of Maynard Ferguson's high note specialists. He said something about improving muscle strength around the mouth and I always wondered how. Towards that end the P.E.T.E. is really working for me.
Still, though, especially with church music, when one begins to feel good and soars a bit high, a bit strong and for a bit long... Ah, as the scripture says, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: endurance while improvising
BeboppinFool wrote:
You can join me in my continuing search for that balance . . . I think Chris LaBarbera has found it, by the way.
Thank you Rich.
I think playing jazz and using the full range of the trumpet is THE hardest thing to do.
I work three steady gigs a week, they are all jazz gigs and all of them are four hours long. Its a five piece band led by a bebop/early R&B rockin roll jazz tenor player named Jimmy Cavallo (google him).
The first set is all bebop tunes....cherokee, lady bird, blue n' boogie etc. The band can get really loud during the last two sets and we play a lot of Ray Charles things plus Louie Prima and tons of rhythm changes tumes and up tempo "jumpin jive" type blues numbers. Jimmy loves to "riff" behind the other soloists so that horn is on my chops all night. We close with "Down at the Chicken Shack" in Bb and I always test myself to see if I've still got the DHC at the very end of the gig.
Heres what I have found to be helpful............
Find your "legs" before you leave your house, and make sure that you use enough mp pressure to keep them all night.
When playing a jazz solo, think of the way you must keep those legs to do the "track routine" and still get the last high G out after all those low C's.
Make sure that you USE your upper register often in your solos. This will help you to keep your legs as well as some good solid stacatto here and there. This all helps to re-inforce your legs.
If it gets really loud, see if you can stand playingw ith just one ear plug in. I know that this is very hard to do when playing jazz, but if its a really loud gig you may have no choice.
Play just a few ( don't go overboard) squeakers here and there between sets. Remeber that jazz playing has the tendancy to open your chops, you want to combat that.
WATCH YOU INHALATIONS VERY CAREFULLY. Carless mouthcorner inhalations have destroyed more jazz trumpet players that the electric chair.
I hope some of this helps you fellas, just remember that it always an uphill battle. Lead players are clueless about the kind of chops it takes to play the head of a tune, take two or three choruses, play fours with the drummer, then play it out and do that ALL NIGHT, PLUS PLAY DOUBLE C'S.
Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 429 Location: Amherst Massachusetts
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject:
Chris, what a GREAT post!! Not only is that great advice for those of us who are trying to get our chops to together when improvising, but everything in there was also great advice for playing and practicing in general. Everyone trying to learn something about Reinhardt on here should read and REREAD that post; I know I will!!
You know that Doc wanted his jazz player students to use strictly "nose inhalations" for all their jazz work.
While that really is a great way to make sure you never take a bad mouthcorner inhalation, its just not practical.
Even when my nose is totally clear, and I remeber to recede the tongue like Doc said for a nose inhalation I still don't feel like I can ever get enough air for the really long phrases while playing jazz.
Theres also something very therapeutic about a correct mouthcorner inhalation. I think the muscles of the face are briefly energized and refreshed from a mouthcorner IH. Think about holding your lip formation through a whole solo just using the nose........sounds almost like a Carmine Caruso routine.
Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 429 Location: Amherst Massachusetts
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject:
Mr.Hollywood wrote:
Thanks Rich,
You know that Doc wanted his jazz player students to use strictly "nose inhalations" for all their jazz work.
While that really is a great way to make sure you never take a bad mouthcorner inhalation, its just not practical.
Even when my nose is totally clear, and I remeber to recede the tongue like Doc said for a nose inhalation I still don't feel like I can ever get enough air for the really long phrases while playing jazz.
Theres also something very therapeutic about a correct mouthcorner inhalation. I think the muscles of the face are briefly energized and refreshed from a mouthcorner IH. Think about holding your lip formation through a whole solo just using the nose........sounds almost like a Carmine Caruso routine.
Chris LaBarbera
Chris, that's interesting! I didn't know that Doc recommended that for jazz players. Wouldn't you also say that you would miss out on the "snapping forward" of the mouth corners at the peak of the inhalation that sets up the puckered resistance and the "doughnut?"
Has anyone here spent any length of time working on the endurance drills? Seems like one of the biggest problems jazz players face is the long amounts of time with the horn on your face. It seems like the endurance drill might tackle that. I haven't spent enough time doing it to really say, though. Anyone else?
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject:
Great stuff here!
Mr.Hollywood wrote:
I think the muscles of the face are briefly energized and refreshed from a mouthcorner IH.
Even though I can't consistently use mouthcorner inhalations yet and they mess me up about as often as they help, when I do it right I'm finding this ..
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 478 Location: Hamilton, Montana
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject:
Quote:
You know that Doc wanted his jazz player students to use strictly "nose inhalations" for all their jazz work.
Chris, I studied with Doc a few years before you did. He told me that nose breathing was therapeutic but not recommended as a way of playing. He felt that it "thinned" out the sound. I wonder if he changed his mind. My impression was that Doc was always learning and refining his teaching.
Sergei Narkariakov appears to nose breathe and circular breathe all the time. He is a classical player and doesn't need to produce the volume that a jazz player needs.
I agree that a correct mouth corner inhalation gives you the opportunity to slightly relax the corners and refresh the muscles.
Thats sounds about right John. Doc told me the same thing about using solely nose inhalations (that the thin out the tone).
But right around 1980 he found that you could get almost the same amount of air through the nose if you just made certain to recede the tongue correctly.
He then came up with the theory that you should use stictly nose inhalations and I quote...."For all you jazz choruses". I believe I even have a personally typed sheet on this as well as him saying it on tape.
Either way, using nose IH for playing jazz has never worked for me.
As Doc reccomended I always play my first two routines of the day using nose IH. I have also found nose IH to be priceless for hitting a high note on the "and of four" after and empty bar following a shout chorus in big band work. Nose inhalations are really great in certain spots where you don't want to loose your setting or just don't have time for a mouthcorner IH.
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 2190 Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:43 am Post subject:
Chris: Even when my nose is totally clear, and I remeber to recede the tongue like Doc said for a nose inhalation I still don't feel like I can ever get enough air for the really long phrases while playing jazz.
That sounds right, and not taking a big enough breath can be a major problem when playing jazz. There's nothing worse than running out of air before you get to the end of your lick.
Hanks: Has anyone here spent any length of time working on the endurance drills? Seems like one of the biggest problems jazz players face is the long amounts of time with the horn on your face. It seems like the endurance drill might tackle that. I haven't spent enough time doing it to really say, though. Anyone else?
I've played the Arban endurance drill 2 or 3 times a week for months on end, but after awhile I felt like it conflicted with the idea of resting before you get too tired. So I quit doing it. It was 40 minutes of continuous playing and I always felt beat-up the next day. I find I get better results resting more frequently than from playing continuously until my chops are wasted. This isn't a Reinhardt book, but I have the Kopprasch '60 Selected Studies book 1' leftover from high school, and I often play a bunch of the technical etudes out of that book. Some of them go on for a full page, with the page completely repeated, and they throw in some awkward slurs that lay against the grain of the horn, if you know what I mean. You can practice all kinds of articulation on them and work on endurance at the same time. I'll post one of them here. I like to play through a bunch of them, and then do this one last and see if I can add a 2-octave scale to a high G at the end. If I've been a good boy and haven't taken any days off, it's usually not a problem. I think this book is still in print. Maybe I should think about getting book 2.
Living in MI., I get the pleasure of working a couple of jobs a year with the great Mike Williams (from the Basie band) The last time I played with him I was checking out his warm-up, and he was playing an etude that I knew. I asked him about it and he said that usually endurance is not a problem for him (which I can attest to...he can put it out ALL NIGHT.). But when he's playing a lot of articulated stuff, like you find in etudes, he gets tired really quickly. I'm the exact opposite. I have to do a lot of articulation work everyday to get my chops where I like them to be.
Anyway, an interesting tidbit.
BTW, anyone know what type Mike W. is? The first time I played with him I figured he was a type IV, simply cause he was playing up to G's about dbl C, and that was in his warm-up! _________________ www.mikesailorsmusic.com
I've played the Arban endurance drill 2 or 3 times a week for months on end, but after awhile I felt like it conflicted with the idea of resting before you get too tired. So I quit doing it. It was 40 minutes of continuous playing and I always felt beat-up the next day.
Kurt,
You are probably playing it too loud. It should be be done pretty softly . Its meant to take you into what Reinhardt called the "second wind". This is where the reflexes take over when you reach a certain point of fatigue. Another thing.........2 or 3 times a week is way too much. Doc told me to do the endurance drill just once a week.
The drill has always worked wonders for me but I seldom do it. ITS SO BORING, its like Chinese water torture, especially when you get it to the point where you can go on for way over and hour...........Just to clarify I'm speaking of "Endurance Drill A".
Now "Endurance Drill B" is another thing.......Its no where near as long and using the extra mp pressure on the inhalations is a great way to really feel you legs.
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