Flat Chin

Lt Clyde Frog · Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 2:01 pm Post subject:

I've read some about BE and one of the big things is that flat chins usually arent good. I play with a flat chin and my range is only average. How would you recommend changing and playing with a normal chin.
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trumpetjunkie · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 622

Get the BE book.
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Lt Clyde Frog · Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 2:46 pm Post subject:

I plan on getting when i get some money. I just bought MCFB, Clarke's Technical Studies, Schlossberg, and Colins Adv. Lip Flex. so im kinda outta cash.
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dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

A firm flat chin, for most players, is the foundation for the upper lip to sit on and vibrate. The bunched chin delivers a very different sound that I'm not fond of. The upper lip does most of the vibrating, and if you think of the bottom lip as your offensive line blocking for your quarterback (upper lip) you have a pretty good mental image. The firm flat chin, with strength in the "U" shape will not thin the lower lip but give you control of the lower lip pucker. This gives you better aperture control (in my opinion) than the bunched chin which pinches up and gives a more pinched sound. The lips need compression towards each other as you play higher, but firm corners and a good offensive line (lower lip) as well as thinking "less pressure, more in the mouthpiece" (Bob Findley) works very well.

Without a solid and moving air stream, nothing works any way. And good practice!

Just my opinion. There are others. Find out what works for you, let the sound guide you.

Dave Bacon

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-02 20:22 ]

Forte · Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:05 pm Post subject:

pushyred · Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 6:19 pm Post subject:

Hey Mr Frog,
I have the been working from the BE book for over a month and one of the most important points that Jeff makes is that most of the "natural" players play with the traditional flat chin and this works great for them. His point is that not every one needs to "look the same" on the outside to achieve good results. If a flat chin works for you then by all means, don't mess with a good thing. I remember in college one of the trumpet profs mentioned that I was playing with a bunched chin. I had never noticed or given it any thought but of course I went immediately into a practice room and studied my face in a mirror while playing. He hadn't said I "shouldn't" play with a bunched chin but I took it as being somehow different and thus perhaps "wrong". I now believe that is how I was playing naturally and one reason Jeffs book is working for me.

I must say that this book combined with what Allen Vizzutti said to me about using 14 times as much air seems to be helping me take my playing to the next level. Not just in range, endurance, and consistancy; but my sound is more vibrant and centered now as well. Thus while some will perhaps sound pinched or bad with a bunched chin, others will sound better.

I like what someone else said. Work with the materials you have right now and pickup the BE book later. I personally think its a worth while investment for any trumpet player. Like any other method, one should take from it what works and disregard the rest. It does make for some interesting reading.

Good luck and don't forget...this is supposed to be FUN!

tptguy · Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:10 pm Post subject:

With Harry James, Maurice Andre, Clifford Brown and so many other great sounding players that play (ed) with bunched chins I think it's a moot point. I could type a very long list of recognized players with flat chins and pinched sounds but I'll just let people judge for themselves. Best regards, Kyle

Young Man with a Horn · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:22 am Post subject:

Lt Clyde Frog,

I totally agree with Quad C. The books you've just bought are the best that money can buy and will last you a lifetime. I've been guilty in the past of buying gimmicky methods but keep coming back to the tried and tested.

Put in the hours using those methods and then review your practice routine if need be.

Good luck!

johann_24 · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:51 am Post subject:

From my personal experience, the flat chin works best. A good mental image for me is to think of how your chin is when gently sucking water through a straw. It should be tight, but not bunched.

I got that mental image from a real picture taken of me in a rehearsal. My chin looked flat, like i was drinking a soda with a straw, and the guy next to me looked like he just ate a sour skittle.
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Lt Clyde Frog · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:22 am Post subject:

I looked in the mirror and saw hat when i play i dont bunch or make it flat. It stays relaxed the whole time, does anybody else play with the chin relaxed.
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Castle Bravo · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 Apr 2003 Posts: 542

6 months ago my range was average & inconsistant. BE changed everything.....

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-02 20:23 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:35 pm Post subject:

Some photos show players like Chuck Findley and Bud Brisbois with what might be described as a flat chin. Rafael Mendez, same thing.

trumpetjunkie · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 622

Hey all.

It seems like alota people are saying that since there are some great trumpet players out there who use a flat chin, it is what we should use. Jeff Smiley addressed this in his book- he said something like "The flat chin is not bad, but it is inefficient. There are people who can use the flat chin, but they are the "1 in 10 First Chair Johnnie's"" The point is to do it more efficiently.

Also you who say "From personal experience the flat chin is better"-
Right now for me-the flat chin is way better. It's reliable, (at least in the staff) good tone, and it's whats most natural. But I am presently learning the BE way, I can scream with it, but it's not reliable yet, because I'me still learning it. It's kind of hard to pass judgement on anything unless you've done it for awhile and used it to it's full potential. Of course flat chin is better for the first month or two while your learning BE.

Just my thoughts. I'm learning BE now and I LOVE the results. Even when I'm not playing BE way, it benefits my flat chin too.

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-02 20:24 ]

AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

The Phillip Farkas "flat chin" concept is actually for french horn players, and as mentioned in the Arbans book, the embouchure style for trumpet is basically the opposite of the french horn when it comes to proportion. Therefore, it's not worth worrying about how you keep your chin when you're playing, just do what's comfortable and the rest will fix itself.

trumpetjunkie · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 622

QuadC,
My bad, they just pointed out that many great players used them, so it isn't necesarily a bad embouchure. Sorry bout that.
~Kaleb

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:12 pm Post subject:

Clyde asked if a "relaxed chin" was OK. That's fine, in my opinion. My main objection is with teachers who force the student to stretch the chin muscles downwards, into a point. I would rather have muscles go towards the mouthpiece.

It's sad reading the same old misconceptions about how tone will be negatively affected by moving to a more bunched chin. In reality, good tone can be achieved with lips in many different positions.

Tone is primarily a function of hearing. Through listening to our playing, the resulting unconscious microscopic muscle movements shape the sound in the direction that we desire. There is no universal lip position which generates a "good" tone.

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

Lt Clyde Frog · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:36 pm Post subject:

I'm leaving my chin as is, if i try to bunch it or flatten it that would just be one more thing to think about.
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Bear with me people........I've never had a private lesson!!!

Would you like some more tea.......