Double A

Young Man with a Horn · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:15 am Post subject:

I try to work on my range every day along with other important areas of my playing, but despite all the really helpful comments posted here and many years of practice, I cannot for the life of me play the A above high C, even though I am able to play the next few steps up to Double C.

Sorry if I sound like a terrible show off, but I'm just after some genuine advice. Will this note elude me forever?!

fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:22 am Post subject:

Hmmmm, sounds like an interesting problem... have you tried alternate fingerings for that A, which might make it pop out easier? It sounds like you have the chops for it, but maybe you should try playing it with an alternate fingering? Anybody else got any advice?
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Young Man with a Horn · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:32 am Post subject:

Tried it on 1&2, 3 and 2. Don't know which of these might work best, but I haven't hit it yet!

trickg · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:44 am Post subject:

Erg! A lot of the guys I know with that kind of range use valve 3 only for Double A (I was talking about this very topic with someone last night that has decided to use valve 3) but since you've tried that already, it may be that your horn has a problem slotting that note. What equipment are you using at the moment? Again, talking to some of the guys that I know, I'm convinced that some horns lend themselves better to this type of taks than others and yours may be one of those horns.

Just keep working at it and you will probably "find" just where it is.
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:17 am Post subject:

Well, until a few days ago I had reasonably good performance range to high G or so. More an ability to play some descants up to it and end with good tone, not that I could play a ballad up there. (Don't "own" it yet.) Over that, I could squeal reasonably well over triple C (but not in front of anybody but my teacher or in practice). The high A remains elusive for me as well, however! I think, for me, it's a "transition" note where the embouchure/mpc/horn system has to "switch gears" to play the high notes. I think most everybody has a break like this somewhere; the better high-note artists have learned to play right through it or have it at a higher point (note) than the rest of us (oops -- I should say "than me" or is that "I"? I'm an engineer, durn it!) I have a feeling that it's partly physical, but a large part of that is that I tend to tense up (knowing it's there and I always miss it).

My only clue, and thus only bit of advice, is to relax. Not the airstream, but try to approach the note "gently". The few times I've wailed out the A have been when the center of my lips were more relaxed and I felt like the airstream was supporting the chops as the note sailed out. This happened once in a performance when I heard the note in my head over the final chord and just shifted up and played a gorgeous (yes, I have it on tape!) high tone at the end of a Christmas piece. Wasn't 'til later that I realized it was a high A (over high C). If it's hard, I'll make it harder by thinking about it. Better to back off, relax, and play up to it again, keeping "gentle" and "easy" in mind. Or, play over it, and drop down to it. It's amazing how easy a high C seems to be after playing a high G or double C over it.

FWIW - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

trumpetdiva1 · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:19 am Post subject:

What has helped me find the A is playing A-C#-E-A to hear the A. I start from F over high C and play this pattern of chords until I reach the A. So, I increase it one-half step until I reach the A. Play the A (with or without the chords) at a soft dynamic level so that you can hear the note. Keep playing them at that soft dynamic level until you are comfortable with it. This may help you find it. If you cannot find it, you may try using different intervals such as perfect fourths or perfect fifths. This method has worked for me in the past.

Janell Carter

PH · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:56 am Post subject:

I know people who have great success playing the high A with all three valves depressed & others who play it fingered "1" (that's right). Up there all the notes are close together.

p.s. When I find what works for me I'll tell you. Nothing yet...

comebackkid · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:26 am Post subject:

Great posts, especially Don Herman's.

Most people I have talked to have their "break" right around A.
I know of one monster player who claims his break is all the way down at E.

My break is between Bb and B.

How can you get that darn note at your break. That is the question.

I recomend going past it, and then "sitting down on it!"

It is easier to bend notes down than up, right? Why add more and more tension trying to work up to it?

In other words, If Bb is easier for you than A, you might more easily get the A while descending from Bb than from ascending from Ab.

This is what works for me. Perhaps it will help others too.

Ed

James B. Quick · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:36 am Post subject:

You have to check and make sure it's not the horn. 'Pops' in one of his books described a horn that had a condition where the nodes were screwed up and canceled out certain notes...

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:41 am Post subject:

For the record, I hit the A wall using every horn I've tried, and across a variety of mpcs (why? -- I have some theories, but...) This includes my WT and NTC (high G is the problem -- same frequency, a clue of some sort I suppose), a Z (Yamaha), my old Bach 37 (and my teacher's 37), etc. For me. anyway, a good horn/mpc combo really helps the high register, but doesn't solve my A-wall problem.

FWIW - Don

p.s. Thanks for the kind words, Ed!
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

alex · Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:54 am Post subject:

i have had some luck playing double A without any valves, sorta like pushing double G up a note. i have a calicchio 1s-2 and i have some problems slotting both double A and double F, so i got this little workaround for the A. i am playing a big mpc (vb 1,5c) so that might be causing it. i will surely be looking for a new mpc soon to see if that helps.

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

Young man,

My guess is you are probably really "working" your chops and body body physically when you play high notes such as those described in your post. I'd be really interested to learn if this is so. Please respond if you can.

Might be able to shed some light on this issue as I've had a high G# block for years. In fact I've even worked out a completely new embouchure because of the wall I hit around the same note you've described.

Many trumpet players have this problem. About half the good lead players I've met found the high G OK but it was a real battle to play even one note higher. Though I can't prove it I have a gut feeling that the upper lip is blocking the throat of the mouthpiece at the high G# making it very difficult to get any vibration. Excessive arm pressure probably is partially to blame for this too.

When the trumpet player who has this wall plays just a bit higher the upper lip begins to let the air through again but in a different way than it did below the high G#. This is why your double C is playable but not the A. Again, I can't prove this but feel strongly it is so.

On my new embouchure I have virtually no cut off point or radical sound change as I ascend up to triple C. Reason for this is that my chops are a lot more rolled in this formation and can not block off the throat of the mouthpiece. In the rolled setting the lips do not protrude significantly into the mouthpiece.

As to your situation, someone has already mentioned playing more softly upstairs. That helps me too on my older "blocked high G#" embouchure. Another thing that helps is practicing with the horn on the palm of my hand so as not to increase the arm pressure.. It's difficult to play this way at first, but really helps sound production, endurance etc. in the upper register.

The pencil exercise is good for fixing the high G#/A block too. Strengthens the lips so that less pressure is needed to play high. When the pressure is reduced the lips no longer cut off the sound and the A comes out clearly. Easier said then done perhaps.

fromthehip22 · Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 8:47 am Post subject:

I find that 1st valve works best for locking in the A. I can get it also with 2nd valve, but the pitch is better and the note centers better with 1st valve for me. This applies to both my Calicchio 1s/2 and YTR 6345HG. Paying attention to how I am breathing and doing the exhale also affects the notes considerably in that register.
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FishBait · Regular Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 32

Ah, just play a Bb and drop the pitch a little. Who's gonna know...hehe.
Hey Ed, was that "monster" Ingram by any chance?

toohi2here · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:09 am Post subject:

Young,

I would take these comments with a grain of salt. I'm none of these people have the dubba C like you and me. Don't worry about the A it'll come. In the mean time all you need is a dubba C or dubba C# and occasionally the dubba D. If you have those who needs the A, cause you can play higher than it, so you'll always have a chord tone. Don't worry about the A, just concentrate on the Dubba.
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Double C a day keeps the buck teeth away

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Stuck on Double 'G' (here's the cure...)

"I'm stuck on Double G?? - grrr! I can play high g [4 legers] NO problem!!!!
I'm really good at it and no one can play it louder than me" - but WHY am I stuck???"

Okay if I had a pound / dollar for everytime somebody mentioned this one above
I would'nt have to write books like this so as to be able to afford the wife, or go out drinking with my mates -- hehehehe!

It is 'SOOOO' common a problem for those already fortunate enough to be able to get to high g to be stuck there. If this is you, I really hate to have to tell you this, but you may have a sound as wide as a barn door on high g, but you are likely to have built your range on too much pressure in the lower registers. You are using TOO much mpc pressure to be able to overblow the harmonic series to be able to get a Double A - in tune, fulsome and then onwards/upwards to be able to access the upper registers.

Stuck at high 'g' feels something like this... does'nt it?

...when you first encounter the problem it feels like your okay to high g [4 lines above] but then after that, the effort is enormous, the tone changes, and becomes more pinchy, and although you can Sqeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzee out a double high C so you can tell all your mates. It kinda feels like having a falsetto range after high g does'nt it?

After high 'g' you basically get less and less help from the trumpet in the form of impedance/ feedback to you as a player [which helps to close the aperture a little] as you go higher. As you ascend the register then, it becomes a matter of how deft you are at keeping the mpc pressure down / air speed high and how efficient your lip vibrations are.

High G is the cut off point for lots of people [some sooner] because after this the instrument no longer is a 'closed ended tube' dictated by the harmonic series that reflects soundwaves back at the player, but becomes an open ended tuble with little or no feedback and so the player provides ALL the lip vibrations necessary to make the open ended tube resonate. This is where the production of sound is almost completely due to the the air/lip interaction.

[It's a little easier on cornet due to the conical bore of the instrument and the frequency reponse of the impedance feedback being at slightly different points]

It feels like a break between G/G# and A for you. You can feel/hear it right?

You will know when you are playing with less pressure in the higher registers because it feels like there is NO break between high G / A ....and.. on up. When you can do this your range will NOT be going up step by step, it will increase in chunks of range - HONESTLY!!!

See the chapter called "efficiency corellated to range" for a VERY full explanation how this comes about in our early lessons and what as teachers we have to do with a simple solution to avoid it happening time and time again.

Here's the answer....
You can continue ALL you like in the manner of exercises etc. that got you to THIS "stuck point" ....BUT....it won't work....you have to take some backwards steps.....

If you can't play a full round sounding Double A in tune......I'll repeat that one right there..
....IN TUNE.. you are'nt strong enough, or co-ordinated enough with air speed, aperture/less mpc pressure and internal compression from the abs to be able to go ANY further than your high g with a proper PLAYING [not hitting or squeezing] of high notes into the exosphere!

It is ALL a matter of personal perception. Hitters and squeezers, cannot believe it when they HEAR in a LIVE situation a PLAYER of high notes. Some people say...yeh well I can really get the Double Bb NO problem but it's just I can't get that 'A' ...my answer is still the same...you are using TOO much pressure in ALL your LOWER registers.

How do you cure it then?

 Well you HAVE to learn to play lots of the stuff you find easier, lower down....
..WITH AS LITTLE AMOUNT OF MPC. PRESSURE AS POSSIBLE!!

 Start with some simple tunes/etude books. MF did the arban - use something more melodic
if I were you whilst keeping a good tone. You REALLY need to do this a lot, until you are making music EASILY in flowing lines like you NEVER did previously.

 Take regular 20 min on / off breaks. Then step it up in semitones / half steps but all the while keeping THE EASE OF OPERATION AND TONAL CLARITY!!!

THE REGULAR / NORMAL RANGE STUFF HAS TO FEEL 'SO' EASY THAT THE TRUMPET FEELS LIKE IT IS PLAYING ITSELF. YOU HAVE TO DRAMATICALLY INCREASE YOUR ENDURANCE AND REDUCE YOUR MPC PRESSURE.

Why do you think when you go see a great player they make it look SO easy ? -- BECAUSE IT IS!

I repeat again.....

If you can really PLAY a Double 'A' IN TUNE WITH A FULL TONE within a melody, the notes after that one are much, much easier. All the way to DHC+

There in fact is'nt another break in the range as described earlier from that Double 'A' on upwards, it just becomes injecting faster and faster air whilst continually backing off of the mpc pressure to allow the lips to vibrate.

What is required PAST DHC is the ability to REALLY REALLY compress your air internally, have a tiny aperture, with incredibly minimal mpc pressure and just back off the MASS of
air also to be able to allow the TRIPPLE register to kick in unobstructed.

It's a knack, like the flipping a coin inbetween the fingers trick.
The strange thing about this, is that in every jazzers effort to get the high register they rush onto the highest stuff possible and knock their brains out with too much pressure right?

* * * * So why can't legit players play "paint peeling" high lead trumpet as well?..

[yes, I know they can play quite high! It's all personal perception though!] ..seeing as they don't fall into this particular trap, and also have the GOOD habits of playing with a beautiful tone and have great endurance through minimal pressure [I know some legit guys who use enough mpc pressure to crush a brick however!]

Here are some differences....

I think it's partially because the legit guys don't know how to use their air speed in combination with smaller equipment without bottoming out. In the legit world they generally don't need to know about pivot [which helps keep you 'up'there!]

Jaw alignment is also different [for most legit guys] as they use a farkas type embouchure which mostly has it's advocates angling the horn in a more downwards fashion in conjunction with a more receding jaw position in turn creating more air resistance on their larger mpc's.

Generally...I'll repeat that....generally ...they use too much of a stretch "type" chop shape which although is easier to be accurate with, is more difficult to avoid excessive lip tension / mpc pressure when going higher. Less meat in the mpc. [smile embouchure]

* * * * Now before the legit guys go jumping up and down remember, I said "paint peeling" DHC. Not just managing to sqeeeeeeeuuuuuuzzzze one out!

This results in a range cut off point depending on the skill of the legit player.
My old legit teacher could easily sqeeeeeuuuuuuzzzzzze out DHC's but could'nt play them like MF, and this is why.

If you're reading this [sir] by the way - thanks for ALL your help, you'd be pleased to know I probably practice the Arban now more than ever....you were right..it's fun!!

To sum up, once you can PLAY properly and not HIT all your high notes the double g barrier will disappear.

How do you know when the barrier has disappeared for good?

When you can PLAY all the notes above double 'g' with a fulsome tone. Learn to play your existing range much more easily than you do now, AND with a better tone. How can you do that?..work on your endurance [more than range] with less mpc pressure and you'll see a range improvement as a side effect.

Until you take some backwards steps to correct old mpc pressure playing problems that you may not even FEEL to be there much [they ARE there - trust me!] the "brick wall" is always gonna be there. The feeling of range getting harder as you go higher and requiring MORE lip effort is incorrect. More is not always right. Sometimes "less is more" as the old saying goes.
Besides - you've tried everything else - now try the total opposite of trying incredibly hard

-- IT'S THERE WAITING FOR YOU!!!

-------------------------------
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Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

FishBait · Regular Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 32

Wow! Quite a mouthful there...but I never did get the knack of that flipping the coin in my fingers trick. Bummer, guess I'll never get that A. Hehe...

_Don Herman · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:16 am Post subject:

On 2003-06-13 05:57, Emb_Enh wrote:
-- IT'S THERE WAITING FOR YOU!!!

You meant "laughing at" and not "waiting for", right?

Relax, that's the ticket.... Nice post Roddy, but watch out or you'll give away all the good stuff in your book... No more trews!

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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

hahahah...cheers mr.don...however there's plenty more in the book as you know...all the best to ya!

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=5237&forum=5&22
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Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

toohi2here · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:37 pm Post subject:

Horn,

Don't listen to that book bull, that was just presented. If you analyze it, you'll never get it. Just squeeze your butt cheeks together and blow. If you don't get it the first time, try, try, try, again. Eventually your body will figure it out. A book is not going to get you anywhere.
_________________
Double C a day keeps the buck teeth away