Hindemith and Voisin

[natemayfield]

Comment deleted. All information will be compiled into a new book on the Hindemith Trumpet Sonata by Nathaniel Mayfield.
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[trpt.hick]

Nate,

I, too, am confused by the tempo indications. When I studied with Roger in 1974, he told me that he performed it informally at Tanglewood during the summer of 1940 (his first year as a teacher there), a year after the piece was penned by Hindemith. He talked about how the half-note was to get the beat in the first movement, and how Hindemith (a decent pianist, although viola was his main instrument) struggled to play it, even though he he got most of it. Roger pointed out to me how this makes the shifting meters feel like true odd meters.

When playing the trumpet part only, this makes perfect sense! However, I have yet to find a pianist that can actually play the piano part at half-note = 96-100. Considering that Hindemith wrote all of his sonatas as "useful" music, it seems hard to believe that he thought pianists everywhere could play it at that speed.

I had dinner with Voisin and his family during the ITG conference in Amhurst, just a few months before he died. Roger was still as sharp as a tack! I specifically asked him about this piece again. He confirmed everything I had remembered him saying.

A few years ago I acquired a photocopy of a few pages of the Sonate. The first page of the first movement CLEARLY indicates that quarter-note = 96-100. Knowing how precise Hindemith was with his composing, and seeing the manuscript in his own hand. . . on the first page header, no less. . . makes it hard to believe that he wrote it as a misprint. Ever since seeing this, I have been confused. This, coupled with the extreme difficulty of the piano part at the half-note tempo, makes me think that Roger must have remembered incorrectly. Either that, or their rehearsal performance was fast enough that Roger was able to think in two, which is how he remembered it. Perhaps he was thinking that since Hindemith could play it somewhat fast, a professional pianist would be able to do it at half-note = 96-100.

Hindemith died in 1963. Was the Sonate recorded before that? I don't know, but all of the recordings and performances I have heard have been at quarter-note = 96 to about 140 or so. (I think Carol Reinhardt's recording is the fastest, but it still is nowhere near half-note = 96-100.) Surely, Hindemith would have voiced his contempt at the "slow" renditions being done if he actually meant half-note to get the beat?

My own opinion? I think that quarter-note should get the beat.

Dave Hickman

PS. Tonight, I will scan and post page one of the manuscript.

[natemayfield]

Comment deleted. All information will compiled into a new book on the Hindemith Trumpet Sonata by Nathaniel Mayfield.
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[jsnfmn]

Don't mean to muck of the waters here but since mention was made of recordings before 1963, I thought I'd add what I found out when I was researching this. At some point I was trying to find some more information on one of my first private teachers, Alex Wilson, and discovered that he was reputed to have made the first recording of the Hindemith Sonata in 1950. I tried for some time to find a used copy of the LP and eventually gave up and made a digital copy of one of the few library copies that exist, made a copy of the sleeve as well. He takes the first movement at around quarter = 140, in line with the fastest modern recordings Mr. Hickman mentions, but still not anywhere near the half note markings.

It may seem counterintuitive, but with a composer like Hindemith who was so interested in ratios and proportions, it may be possible that he halved the tempo in order to make the movement playable while still maintaining some of the proportional tempo relationships between movements. The durational proportions may have been less important to him in this piece. Pure speculation of course, just food for thought.
_________________
Jason Huffman
jsnfmn.net

[trpt.hick]

Nate,

I attended Voisin's masterclass at the ITG. I don't remember any mention of a student performing it with Hindemith. The tape will tell for sure, though.

Dave

[natemayfield]

Comment deleted. All information will be compiled into a new book on the Hindemith Trumpet Sonata by Nathaniel Mayfield.
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[trpt.hick]

He never really said what the performance was, but that it wasn't actually a concert. My guess (having been to Tanglewood) is that it was during a trumpet masterclass, but might have also been for the student composers and conductors as well.

[jsnfmn]

[ravel]

Quarter note gets the beat! Don't know what Roger said in his later years but that's how he played it for me.

[loudog]

I really don't understand how it COULD be Half Note getting the beat...I really think it's a misprint.

It's just too darn frenetic at Half Note = 100...totally defeats the marking of Mit Kraft.

Take a recording (I used the Tom Stevens), and put the first movement into a program like Audacity. You can speed up the tempo 100% without changing the pitch...it just doesn't sound like Hindemith...at all.

Louie
_________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College

[trpt.hick]

True, some composers change their minds, or are quite open-minded and flexible. But. . . I've worked with dozens of pianists, many at the virtuoso level, and none could play it faster (with decent accuracy) than quarter = 140. To think of the piece at half = 96-100 is really a stretch.

[Mzony]

I remember him coaching me this on this piece very clearly, and I remember him telling me that he and Hindemith went over the piece in 1940. He made it very clear that this wasn't a formal concert, I got the notion that perhaps it was an impromptu reading.
That said, he never did talk about the half vs. quarter notation, but he did suggest that I think of the first movement in 2. I'll tell you what, I decided to pump out quarter notes into a metronome and what I hear in my head mixed with what I remember from coachings with Mr. Voisin-it is around 96 beats per minute...but I do feel it in halves and I do hear the rhythmic groupings in the piano in two.
It's moments like this when I wish I was present enough and smart enough to ask Mr. Voisin more questions on some of his stories.
_________________
Zony

[Chris OHara]

I remember Mr. Voisin talking about this while teaching at Tanglewood and he very clearly said that his informal performance with Hindemith at the piano was at the half-note...though I think that Mike may be on to something with the feel, and not necessarily the tempo
_________________
Christopher J. O'Hara, DMA
Bach/Conn-Selmer Performing Artist
Denis Wick Performing Artist
www.chrisjohara.com
www.alliancebrass.com

[DH]

Tom Stevens has a very good article on his website (http://www.thomasstevensmusic.com/quotablesPage.php?Speaking-of-Correct-Tempi-6)
where he shows a copy of the first page in Hindemith's handwriting with a clear quarter = 96 - 100.

I've played it many times but last year decided to actually do it at 96 for a quarter. Was hard at first because it was slower than I'd ever done it. After a while it really felt good and now I'm convinced if I were to do it again, that the 96 works quite well.

I think there's another thread here somewhere about this, and I think I posted tempos on a dozen or more recordings from CDs I have. (I tried to do a search here but the search is too frustrating to use.... if you make a typo, for instance, you can do another search to correct it without waiting a while.)

[JJ]

[tleasure]

Let me chime in here to say that my teacher, Richard Burkart, also had a conversation with Voisin about the Hindemith tempo and he was told by Roger that the QUARTER note got the beat but that the feel of the trumpet part was by the half note.

Furthermore, Doc also questioned him about the 5/4 bar at the end of the second movement. I have heard it performed two ways, but the 'correct' way is half note = half note ala odd meter.
_________________
Tim Leasure
The Ohio State University

[thesplitmeister]

A lot of composers record their music with faster tempi than later becomes recognised as the norm, off hand I remember a particularly rapid recording of Stravinskys Firebird with him at the helm but I've noticed it many times.

[tptmed]

I had the pleasure of knowing Roger for years, and treasure all the lessons. To the end, as Mr. Hickman stated, he was sharp as a tack. He always insisted that Hiindemith want the half note to = 96, and I heard him say it on several occasions. That said, for all the reasons stated above, I agree with the quarter note =96; it seems to convey the power, weight, and tension of the piece better. I've done it at 100, but prefer the 104 area a little more, it just suits me better.

[natemayfield]

Comment deleted. All information will be compiled into a new book on the Hindemith Trumpet Sonata by Nathaniel Mayfield.
www.natemayfield.com

[natemayfield]

Comment deleted. All information will be compiled into a new book on the Hindemith Trumpet Sonata by Nathaniel Mayfield.
www.natemayfield.com