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mimic Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2009 Posts: 121
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:48 am Post subject: Gapless Leadpipe |
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I have a Buescher 400 that has a gapless leadpipe. There has been alot of discussion about the effect gap has on the player and horn. Does anyone know what a gapless leadpipe does with this issue? I have tried numerous mp's in this horn and have had results all over the board. Lacking a gap would this make the backbore gain importance? |
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gus Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 452
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Schilke trumpets with schilke mouthpieces are also gapless. |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:14 am Post subject: |
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He's using gapless in another manner. The receiver to mouthpipe transition is smooth... the end of the mouthpipe is fit into a recess in the inside of the receiver so that it's smooth all of the way down. The vast majority of Buescher trumpets and cornets were made that way except for "The 400" models of trumpet and cornet from about 1948ish through 1955ish, where those are set up more like other brands of horns where the end of the mouthpipe is visible when you look inside from the receiver end, which is how my "The 400" trumpet and cornet are made.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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yeah this kind of pipe is not really gap-less, it's just that the gap situation is smoothed out instead of having ridges where the leadpipe sits inside the receiver.
The Conn 22B is the same way. Now conn made at least three variations on how the leadpipe and receiver melted together. Basically, the venturi is about the same as on a normal setup, but the venturi, or smalles part of the leadpipe is about a half inch or more down from the end of the mouthpiece.
On later 22b's the smallest part is only about a quarter inch down.
The distance that the mouthpiece goes into these types of horns does matter. If its right, the horn plays better, with better response, sound, upper and lower registers etc. In other words everything is either better or worse if it's dialed in correctly or not. The sound of the attacks is maybe the most noticable difference.
On my newly acquired 22b that plays GREAT, (1940) the best shank size is a #5 reeves (.386) and smaller is worse than bigger (bigger "GAP" is better than smaller "GAP"). And it's pretty obvious.
On my buescher, it took a #5 also. That is great cuz that is the most common size for a shank.
SOme people say that on a regular type horn the gap changes the upper or lower register. It does not really do that on a gapless 22b style pipe. It's more in the middle of the horn where you notice it.
Schilke trumpets with schilke mouthpieces that I have had, have the same type gap situation as your basic bach. I had two B2's and a B1. As I recall the gap was .110 or so with a 13a4a. That is about "normal" or maybe on the smallish side. Still, it's a gap.
Doug M _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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skootchy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 1661 Location: Naugatuck, CT
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:06 am Post subject: |
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gus wrote: | Schilke trumpets with schilke mouthpieces are also gapless. |
I know that Schilke originally proposed a "gapless" leadpipe but as far as I know Schilkes today have a 1/16" gap. I am currently awaiting my Reeves Sleeves which should be a "three pack" starting at zero gap and going back (obviously ) in 1/16" increments. I'll report back after the honeymoon. _________________ Praise him with the sound of the trumpet! Ps. 150:3
>=iii=O |
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puukka Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 494 Location: Krems an der Donau/Austria
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Also B&S trumpets come with no gap. They also flatten the beginning edge of the mouthpipe.
One reason for me to think, gap is just another try (beside alignment, backbore,...) to blame the equipment
From all instrumentalists mostly trumpeters love to fiddle around with gadgets, instead of just playing music.
Herbert _________________ Schilke 11C2
K&H Topline |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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I have no doubt it plays a role but I do not think it can be nailed down with an absolute claim for it. So many things add up to make a great trumpet so much so that a few flaws and a great trumpet just became average. Their is always an exception for every rule. SO I think it is a matter of like designs showing like effect at some points of interest like the various gaps at various junction points. The ones that get discussed are the ones that are easy to measure!
I think your trouble in finding a good fit MP wise is an indicator of a design issue. I bet my Buescher 15 MP which is like new would probably fit it and work nicely. Maybe some of use with Buescher pieces could make a soap or wax shank molds for you and you could have someone make a sleeve or machine the shank to match? I am guessing one from the same period that your trumpet was made would be the ideal! I could use modeling clay if that would work better. _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Your Buescher 15 was designed long after his 400, and the Duo-Cup pieces were redesigned at least once during the classic 400-trumpet era.
That said the Duo-Cup pieces came in 4 sizes and they tended to be on the large and open side.
Tm _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Well it was the thought that counts! When I was a kid I made cast's of keys in soap and then made copies......By H.S. I could look at a key memorize it and make a copy from memory. I was into both spy tech. and escape artist and illusionist tech...... unrelated the soap cast made me think of it!LOL I used to make my Mom cuff me so I could practice picking......LOL _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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mimic Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2009 Posts: 121
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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......make my mom cuff me.........
I just threw up in my mouth.[/quote] |
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pilotmike67 New Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2008 Posts: 5 Location: DeBary, FL
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Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:50 am Post subject: Schilke Gap |
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Skootchy, I am going through the same thing and was just about to order the Reeves sleeves for my B1. I'll be anxious to hear your results. _________________ Mike
Smith-Watkins Soloist Cornet
Schilke B1
Bach Philadelphia C
Getzen 3916S Piccolo
Courtois 154R Flugel
Vintage Conn Cornet |
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