slurs, lips move, or stay still?

trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:33 pm Post subject:

Hello

My teacher told me when I play slurs my chin/lips should not move at all. Whether I play a low C or high C they should be in the exact same position. I've tried this many times, to no avail.

Since I got the wet lips/low pressure thing going, should I try to play slurs without moving anything? Is it even helpful to have your chin/lips stay in exactly the same position no matter what note you are playing?

Also, if I am to go about developing this ability, what should I use to start? I have a variety of flexibility exercises from the Arbans and Schlossberg, but even on the smallest slurs I am unable to keep my mouth still.

Bonnie

_trumpetgod_02 · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:00 pm Post subject:

Bonnie,

I think that you need to go back and ask your teacher what exactly they meant, because I don't agree with that at all and I'm sure that just about everyone here would agree with me. MAybe the elimination of chin movement, but to say that the lips do not move between high and low c is a little obsurd to me. I'd ask them for some more clarification.

Nick
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cperret · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:32 pm Post subject:

I have to agree... I think you need to get some clarification from you teacher. ...If your lips and chin don't move when you slur, then what's making the pitch change?!? This sounds pretty wrong to me, too. I don't want to speak too soon here, but have you considered a second opinion? Or at least this: Ask you teacher to play a low C and then C above the staff. Do his chops change? I can almost guarantee so. I would definitely recommend doing a little bit of looking around the forums here, and check out what other players have to say about lip slurring - there's plenty of reading material. Good luck!

valvepimp · Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:27 am Post subject:

Perhaps your teacher was speaking about the corners of your lips. There is a lot to be said for keeping the corners the same in all registers. The center of your lips, however, must move somewhat to change pitch. This is the part that would be obscured by your mouthpiece when you play, so go back and ask your teacher if he meant only the corners.
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_dcstep · Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:30 am Post subject:

Look at this clip:
http://www.trumpetstuff.com/images/Sergei/CarnivalVenice.ram

His head moves a little as he pivots, but the chin is almost dead still.

OTOH, I just looked at myself in the mirror and saw my muscles move as I slur, the chin-bone stays relatively steady (I put the fingers of my right hand there to feel it, but the movement is minimal).

The second trumpet in my rock band lets his chin "bounce" as he plays. He can free buzz high C and hit a G above high-C in warmup, BUT he can't stay in tune even in the staff and his tone is all over the place. Richard Giangiulia flunked him in trumpet studio years ago, so he became an Emmy Award winning sound man!

Anyway, if your jaw is bouncing, you're in for a rough ride (pardon the pun). I don't know how to advise stopping it. As you go up, you have to maintain some distance between your teeth. If you move the jaw up too much that'll close things off and restrain your airflow.

You might address tongue arch with your instructor. (Some are dead set against tongue arch while other embrace it whole-heartedly, me included). Perhaps working with tongue arch on slurs can help you reduce your chin movement, if it's to excess. Make sure your instructor approves of using the tongue in slurring.

Good luck,

Dave
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trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 3:28 am Post subject:

Right now the corners of my mouth move when playin higher. How can I stop? It seems even when incorporating other aids to slurring (such as arched tongue, air flow, etc) I can't slur ovtaves (they move less the smaller the slur is) unless the corners move. Am I going to have to start at the beginning (as far as slurs) and make sure my corners stay still?

Bonnie

_dcstep · Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 4:32 am Post subject:

Are your lips pulling into a "smile"? If so, that's not efficient. The sensation is for me is more like a pucker with the lower lip pushing slightly forward and up. That said, I can't do that with no visible movement of the lips. Hopefully your instructor can tell you about what to do, to supplement his (her) instruction on what NOT to do.

I've seen a few people with almost no movement what so ever, EXCEPT they had a pivot. I don't know what they do to get no movement. This no movement thing may be desireable, but your instructor will need to give some positive instruction to go with the negative.

If you've got a "smile" embouchure, I think you'll find some discussion of the pros and cons of that with a search of this site.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:01 am Post subject:

Bonnie,

You said, "My teacher told me when I play slurs my chin/lips should not move at all. Whether I play a low C or high C they should be in the exact same position. I've tried this many times, to no avail."

a. Private lesson teacher or band director?
b. The lips must move in order to play the instrument.
c. Developed players often look like nothing is moving, as they have learned to concentrate the majority of their movements to inside the mouth and mouthpiece. This happens naturally as a process of refinement. For the developing player, attempting to LOOK LIKE like your lips aren't moving is often the road to failure.

You said, "Also, if I am to go about developing this ability, what should I use to start? I have a variety of flexibility exercises from the Arbans and Schlossberg, but even on the smallest slurs I am unable to keep my mouth still."

a. As Dave alluded to, your instructor is telling you that you have a problem, but apparently not providing you with a practical way to overcome the problem, else you would not be here asking. This sounds like a beating to me! Diagnostics are cheap, and often wrong. Without using your instructors terms, in your own words, can you describe the limitation you experience which (apparently) led to the diagnosis?

Or, does a problem even exist?

Jeff Smiley
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

thelurker · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 257

Listen to your teacher.

(s)He told YOU that for a reason that relates to YOU and what YOU are doing on the horn. Don’t disrespect him or mistrust him by coming on some internet site and asking others how to deal with your problems.

He might have told you that to give you a hint in how to figure out your own problems, or for some other reason. If you dont understand go ask him, not a bunch of guys off the internet.

Bootleg · Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:20 am Post subject:

perhaps he doesn't exactly want to keep still, but he wants you to practice the extreme to overcome any particular problems you have.

like when you try and correct a problem, you practice correcting it to the extreme so when you do it agian, it naturally falls into the correct position. I guess he's simply trying to correct your overmovement or over changing embouchure. Keep in mind that it is extremely difficult to play fast arpeggios with a embouchure that changes radically.

pair of kings · Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:36 pm Post subject:

On 2003-11-02 10:01, trumpetteacher1 wrote:

hazmat · Heavyweight Member Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 669

pair of kings · Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:12 am Post subject:

Matt
our experiences have been different on this I guess.
Would you notice this jaw drop in a descending slur from high G down to middle G?
In that range, a descending slur seems -to me- to have a stabilizing effect on the embouchure. what ever little bit the chops change blowing down, just allow them to go back the way they came.
your comments are also addressing accuracy - which wasn't really part of my point.

another way I have found to work out excess movement in slurring harmonic intervals is to go ahead and add in the scale tones. it won't seem like anything changed - then think the scales tones as you blow the harmonic interval - trying to blow the interval like the scale - with no big movements.

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

If your lips are close enough together and vibrant enough, you won't have to use extraneous lip/jaw manipulation to get slurs to happen if you are using proper breath control.

If your lips are too far apart within the mpc, then you [and everyone else] will use more lip/jaw manipulations to get the slurs to happen.

Maybe he [your teacher] has spotted this and is trying to get you to stop by whatever method without over-complication.

If your lips ARE too spread then playing softly with a good tone 'pp' is difficult and may point to this as a problem.

Aperture test at my website...

Mention this to your teacher - he has the best view of you playing than any of us here...
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hazmat · Heavyweight Member Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 669

I see what you are saying. Accuracy was referring to the lip slurs. That's what you should be striving for along with good tone isn't it?

pair of kings · Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:18 am Post subject:

trpthax · Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:59 am Post subject:

i love how everyone can prescribe a remedy to bonnie's chin movement, or even interperate what her teacher is telling her. Bonnie, you study with your teacher for a reason. if you don't trust him, then don't take lessons from him. people just say what works for them. if it doesn't work for you, try something else. you are your best teacher. nobody else knows what it feels like inside your mouth.
it has been my understanding that a teacher is merely a librarian. they point us in the right directions, but it's up to us to actually study (practice) the material. we can take what we want from that. perhaps in this situation, you could take an outside lesson or two from other professionals in the area. tell your teacher. he should be supportive of you getting as much feedback from as many people as possible. always remember that the end result is how you sound playing music. good luck

pair of kings · Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:29 am Post subject:

quote: it has been my understanding that a teacher is merely a librarian.

Sounds like you havn't had good teachers. I don't think my students would say that.

quote:" i love how everyone can prescribe a remedy to bonnie's chin movement, or even interperate what her teacher is telling her.

most of us who have replied with anything we hoped would be helpful, have also said to ask the teacher to clarify.

hazmat · Heavyweight Member Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 669

trpthax. I would also like to think of a teacher as more than a librarian. A teacher is hopefully also a friend, someone to look up to and someone to keep you going even when you feel like crap.

[ This Message was edited by: hazmat on 2003-11-03 20:25 ]

trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:16 pm Post subject:

Hello everyone. First I must clear up some details about my situation. Some of you may dislike this situation, but for the present I can't change much. I have had about 4 lessons with this tecaher, which have been spread over 10 months or so. He lives a ways away, and my parents aren't very willing to drive me for regular lessons. When I do get a lesson, he is kind enough to drive to my house and visit with my family.

This problem (about the mouth) is one he mentioned once, and I don't know if he would consider it a problem now. I just thought I'd see if anyone here would agree with that wholeheartedly, or if it really isn't right.

Everyone is human, even the smartest person is bound to err, at one time or another. I don't like the idea of going with one particular teacher, though this man is very qualified, I don't see myself following his every word. He has a gift for trumpet playing, picked it up very naturally, and I don't think he encountered every problem I've faced/will face. Don't get me wrong, he has worked very hard for what he has acomplished, just not the same things I work with.

Nor do I live[play] by the words here, I merely use them as references. I know most people frown upon not getting regular lessons, but it's not really working for my schedule/life right now.

Untill it does, this setup is working pretty good! But, without TH it might be a lot different.

AND......yesterday, I took a good look in the mirror, and my corners don't move quite as much as I had thought.

I haven't been around much the past several days or else I would have responded to this much sooner. I'll see you all around

Bonnie