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Which Do You Like Better? |
Standard Spit Valve |
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64% |
[ 50 ] |
Amato Water Key |
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35% |
[ 27 ] |
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Total Votes : 77 |
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StorkandBenge Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 40 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:41 pm Post subject: Spit Valve V:S Amado Water Key Poll |
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This is a "Just for Fun Poll" Looking for at least 100 votes. Note: The poll should read "Amado Water Key" _________________ 1970 Benge (Burbank) Model 3 -Lacquer
1977 Benge (Los Angeles) Model 3X- Lacquer
B&S Exquisite (Malcom Mcnab Model)- Silver
Conn Vintage One Flugelhorn- Silver |
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acritzer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 830 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Neither. I like my Saturn Waterkeys. But between the two you listed...I'd go with standard |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1893 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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acritzer wrote: | Neither. I like my Saturn Waterkeys. But between the two you listed...I'd go with standard |
+1 |
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jhahntpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Posts: 680 Location: Southington CT
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Amado water keys are a nice novelty until they get stuck. You'll curse their very existence after that. I hear Saturn keys are good, I'm personally all for the standard ones. _________________ Bb: Yamaha 9335NY Gen3
Bb: Yamaha 8310Z
C: Shires 4S/W1B
Piccolo: Yamaha 9830
Flugel: Yamaha 8315G
Cornet: York Eminence |
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dewey Regular Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 51 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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jhahntpt wrote: | Amado water keys are a nice novelty until they get stuck. You'll curse their very existence after that. I hear Saturn keys are good, I'm personally all for the standard ones. |
until your cork falls out on a gig _________________ Adams A4; Schilke B5Lb; Van Cleave; Chicago Benge 33XX; LA Benge 5x & 2x; Mt Vernon 37; Mt Vernon Mercedes; Bach 72*/25-0; King Super 20; Conn 28a; Conn 22b; Conn 80a; ConnConqueror; Olds L12 Flugel; Adams F2 Flugel; Couesnon Flugel |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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dewey wrote: | jhahntpt wrote: | Amado water keys are a nice novelty until they get stuck. You'll curse their very existence after that. I hear Saturn keys are good, I'm personally all for the standard ones. |
until your cork falls out on a gig |
Still waiting for that to happen. I've read stories of it, but never experienced it firsthand. I've also never seen it happen to anyone else, in a section, or on a video. Must be possible, but not for any realistically maintained horn. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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I had an experience of a regular waterkey spring breaking off, but not in performance. When the spring still worked, it felt a little weak. On the other hand, I have seen an Amado getting solidly stuck open on a new store display horn. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:21 am Post subject: |
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jhahntpt wrote: | Amado water keys are a nice novelty until they get stuck. You'll curse their very existence after that. I hear Saturn keys are good, I'm personally all for the standard ones. |
dewey wrote: | until your cork falls out on a gig |
This has happened to me during a concert. Rip off the eraser from a pencil. It'll work fine in a pinch.
A rubber band will work for a spring. Again, this has happened to me in the middle of a concert on tour in college.
Sticking a pen (or pencil, but pen is better) into an Amado will sometimes get it unstuck. But, unlike a standard spit valve, an Amado is beyond my ability to fix if it's in any way serious.
I'd never not buy a horn because of Amados, but given a choice, I'd much rather deal with standard ones. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2594
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:09 am Post subject: |
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In my experience Amados don't drain as well or as rapidly as regular water keys. Amados tend to get clogged and stuck and, therefore, aren't as reliable as standard water keys for their intended purpose. In 55 years of playing I've never had a cork fall out or a spring break on a standard water key. I'll tolerate Amados but I prefer standard water keys. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Bill Dishman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:34 am Post subject: Amado vs. standard |
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If my standard water keys go wrong in a performance situation I can make things work with rubber band, pencil eraser etc. The Amados are not anything but potentially frustrating to me.
I have purchased horns with the Amados but have had them all changed out to standard water keys.
Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida |
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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Well I have had springs break, corks fail and stuck Amados. I thought Amados were developed to give the tubing a smooth pathway rather then the offset hole of a water key. Is that design element still relevant?
Cheers,
Gordon Stump _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:46 am Post subject: |
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The thing about Amado water keys is they need to be oiled as frequently as your valves, they are piston valves after all. In order to achieve an air tight seal Amado Keys are fit with minimal clearances. The copy cat versions we've come across can loose 20% or more in pressure tests.
A good example is a Conn prototype French Horn that was built for J.D. Shaw of the Boston Brass Quintet. The imitation piston water keys they used were SO leaky that when replaced with genuine Amado keys the Horn's pitch center improved immensely. For the small difference in cost we prefer using genuine Amado brand water keys.
For the record, the only alternative water keys that are capable of an air tight seal are Saturn, all others fall short in varying degrees of leakage.
Acoustically speaking, the choice is up to a player's preference. An added benefit of traditional water keys is the variability that's available through fine tuning. One could argue with Amado keys variability is eliminated and more consistent results are achieved.
I hope this is helpful. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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James,
If an Amado key was lightly greased instead of oiled, would this improve the compression? After all, Amados do not need to be lightning fast. |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Occasionally I'll use Hetman light bearing and linkage oil to boost the seal, but generally they're pretty tight to begin with.
Amado water keys are made to a high standard, well enough to be used by trusted makers like Blackburn, Getzen, Kanstul and Monette. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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James,
Thank you! |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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I have two horns with Amado water keys. They work fine for the most part, but one key on one instrument gets sticky, even though I oil it every time I play the horn. Thinking about what Jim wrote, maybe this one is tight enough so it doesn't leak. I sometimes have to stick the end of a paperclip into the end to push it back and get it moving again, then douse it with valve oil or rotor oil that I got just for this purpose. Bit of a hassle. So I'm okay with Amados but not a huge fan.
I don't mind standard water keys either. I understand that the spout is supposed to disrupt the airflow slightly, hence the reason for Amados, but I'm not sure I could sense this in a blind test. I check the cork every time I clean the horn to make sure it's still in good shape. If it's starting to look worn or cracked, I'll pick up another one next time I'm at a shop and replace it. With regular inspection and replacement, I've never had one fall out unexpectedly.
I haven't played a horn with Saturn keys. I'd like to check that out. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Comeback Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Jun 2011 Posts: 1143
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I appreciate Jim Becker's Amado insights, too. Thank you, Jim!
Body chemistry must have some impact upon players' successes with Amados. My daily player in recent months has been a Getzen 900 Eterna Classic. I simply have no problems with the Amados. I did have a cork fall out of a waterkey on one of the other trumpets a while ago, though.
Jim |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:25 am Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | dewey wrote: | jhahntpt wrote: | Amado water keys are a nice novelty until they get stuck. You'll curse their very existence after that. I hear Saturn keys are good, I'm personally all for the standard ones. |
until your cork falls out on a gig |
Still waiting for that to happen. I've read stories of it, but never experienced it firsthand. I've also never seen it happen to anyone else, in a section, or on a video. Must be possible, but not for any realistically maintained horn. |
+1; heard of it happening, never experienced it.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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mrsemman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 808 Location: West Brookfield, MA
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:17 am Post subject: |
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How about the Joy Key? I had Osmun put three on my bass trumpet. They work pretty darn good. You don't have t fiddle with anything, although there I seem to have developed a phantom habit of trying to empty them.
Gary _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C Trumpet
Zeus Guarnerius Trumpet
Zeus Guarnerius Flugelhorn
Kanstul G Bugle
Jin Boa Bass Trumpet |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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I'd have to say with Joy Keys the water doesn't dam up waiting to be released by piston, key or other, but is in constant flow exiting the instrument. As one might expect the air tightness is not near as good but the benefit of no build up of excess moisture causing a gurgling sound is avoided which is the Joy Key's primary objective. Remember, these were invented by a French Horn player that got tired of pulling and dumping slides and being caught off guard by a conductor that decided to continue either with or without him! _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Last edited by James Becker on Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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