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Trumpeter_EST Regular Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2020 Posts: 15 Location: Estonia, Tallinn
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:37 pm Post subject: aftermarket slide weights/dampners |
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Hello fellow trumpeters!
A while ago I saw someone selling a set of two golden balls, that were placed one on the bend of the first valve-slides bend and the other on the third valve-slides bend. I don't know how they affect the sound of the instrument, but I'd like to know if anyone has come across anything similar? |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2359 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to TH, I have fond memories from Tallinn and Estonian Friends..
Yes, they do have an affect on sound. Something about dampening counterproductive vibrations.. And anytime you add weight you change vibrations, feel, slotting, overtone activity.
https://osmun.com/harmonic-balancers-2/ _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Yogadidit Regular Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2009 Posts: 91 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:53 pm Post subject: Harmonic Balancers |
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I love mine from Osmun. I use one on the third slide of my Bach Artisan trumpet, MV Bach Trumpet, Schilke B-6 trumpet and Yamaha 8310Z trumpet. I did not like the additional weight on the first slide of the trumpets. It tended to deaden the sound. However, I use weights on both first and third slide on my Yamaha cornet. They are well worth the money to enhance the response of your instrument. Your experience with using both weights on the same trumpet may vary from mine, as different trumpets vary in their response, as do perceptions of players. They are easy to install and easily removed. In fact loosening the screw removes the effect without even removing them. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z
Schilke B4L, B6L, B7L
Bach Artisan
MV Bach 239C/Bb
Yamaha 6330II Cornet
Getzen 895 Eterna Flugel
Dillon Piccolo |
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Trumpeter_EST Regular Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2020 Posts: 15 Location: Estonia, Tallinn
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for your insight. Are there any other manufacturers that you know of who make these or are osmun music the only ones? Is is possible they would improve the intonation of a horn? |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2359 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:00 am Post subject: |
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MouhtpieceExpress.com carries two models, Curry Harmonic Balancers and Crook Weights (no brand name) both listed under balancers.
I think the affect on intonation would be subtle at best. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2669 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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I use one on the 4th slide of one of my trumpet. It has a profound effect on the resonance and response of that horn.
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Del wrote: | I use one on the 4th slide of one of my trumpet. It has a profound effect on the resonance and response of that horn.
Cheers
Andy |
Hmm.....first valve, first slide, second valve, second slide, third valve, third slide......fourth slide?🤔
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Andy Del wrote: | I use one on the 4th slide of one of my trumpet. It has a profound effect on the resonance and response of that horn.
Cheers
Andy |
Hmm.....first valve, first slide, second valve, second slide, third valve, third slide......fourth slide?🤔
Brad |
This is why I love these forums. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | MouhtpieceExpress.com carries two models, Curry Harmonic Balancers and Crook Weights (no brand name) both listed under balancers. |
Accurately named! |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Bryant Jordan wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | Andy Del wrote: | I use one on the 4th slide of one of my trumpet. It has a profound effect on the resonance and response of that horn.
Cheers
Andy |
Hmm.....first valve, first slide, second valve, second slide, third valve, third slide......fourth slide?🤔
Brad |
This is why I love these forums. |
So what am I missing here?🤔
But back to the original question: I tried a set on a Getzen Severinsen, REALLY disliked them. Every situation is different, but for me, on that horn, they made the horn feel rigid and tighter.
I do believe they have an affect, but for me it was not good. YMMV.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:49 am Post subject: |
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FWIW, there’s also a benefit when reducing weight of parts, namely bottom caps. The trick to all of this is in striking the right balance.
My Bach 184 is a good example where the addition of Curry CCAPS were a game changer. As a rule I find weighted caps to be excessive, but to my surprise greatly improved my Bach shepherds crook cornet. Perhaps because it has trumpet valves, the added weight and length mimicked the longer casings found on traditional cornets. I can’t say for sure, but they made a difference for the better.
My 2 cents. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1022 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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My Shires Bb has this, as described on their website: 1st-valve slide harmonic balancer (removable weight in the crook)
I'm not sure I hear a difference with or without. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 w/french, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS, GR 66CT-Z, & Touvron-D. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Riojazz wrote: | My Shires Bb has this, as described on their website: 1st-valve slide harmonic balancer (removable weight in the crook)
I'm not sure I hear a difference with or without. |
I’ve noticed those on some of the Shires. I believe something like that which is part of the original horn design may in fact be beneficial, but adding mass to a horn that was not originally designed that way may or may not be a good thing....depending on your definition of “good.” Or it may do nothing.
Regarding these “harmonic balancers”, for me on a specific horns they were not “good.”
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:05 am Post subject: Harmonic Balancers |
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One iteration of the Destino project was made by Kanstul. Byron Autry was involved with Doc Severinsen and I believe the harmonic balancers fitted between the first and third slide crooks came about during this time. With Severinsen moving to Shires this concept carried on with the Destinos made there.
I fit these weights on my "Boston" model if after lengthy play testing I determine they are beneficial which more often than not they aren't. I use the Mouthpiece Express weights which clamp together via a small bolt when play testing the horn. I do not use them on the final product as I have found they interfere with the slide movement when tightened. If needed my bronze weights get soldered on.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Harmonic Balancers |
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Tony Scodwell wrote: | One iteration of the Destino project was made by Kanstul. Byron Autry was involved with Doc Severinsen and I believe the harmonic balancers fitted between the first and third slide crooks came about during this time. With Severinsen moving to Shires this concept carried on with the Destinos made there.
I fit these weights on my "Boston" model if after lengthy play testing I determine they are beneficial which more often than not they aren't. I use the Mouthpiece Express weights which clamp together via a small bolt when play testing the horn. I do not use them on the final product as I have found they interfere with the slide movement when tightened. If needed my bronze weights get soldered on.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
Quick question Tony: in your experience, in whichever instances where adding them has been beneficial, how would you define beneficial?
Thanks, I always appreciate your expertise here.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965
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Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:31 am Post subject: Harmonic balancers |
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When determining whether or not to use the harmonic balancers on my "Boston" model, I play test the horn with and without the removable balancers. If I feel more center and possibly a bit more vibrance in the sound, the soldered on version get mounted. When the sound is less vibrant they don't get used.It is quite apparent when their use is detrimental to the sound.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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benlewis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 1019 Location: Memphis, TN
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Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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I have a set of the Curry Harmonic Balancers which I purchased through Osmun Music. I find that placing one in the first valve slide crook on my Yamalone C conversion helps slotting without making the horn too stiff. However, they do not seem to help on my other horns; perhaps the adjustable slide bracing on this horn makes the difference.
I remember being intriqued with the Ritenour "Tweekers", but never got a set; guess they are unobtanium now..
HTH
Ben |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2669 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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James Becker wrote: |
My Bach 184 is a good example where the addition of Curry CCAPS were a game changer. As a rule I find weighted caps to be excessive, but to my surprise greatly improved my Bach shepherds crook cornet. Perhaps because it has trumpet valves, the added weight and length mimicked the longer casings found on traditional cornets. I can’t say for sure, but they made a difference for the better. |
Ah - a man after my own heart! I have tried a few times to get various aftermarket makers to create 1 inch valve caps which are actually extensions of the valve casing, not heavy weights themselves... the idea was to add them to a Schilke cornet: heavy caps did nothing positive, different material valve guides made huge changes, but never quite what I was after: a heavier sound which was less (for want of a better term) 'French' cornet... more like my Olds Recording cornet (which has valve casings 1 inch longer).
Shall we create the next voodoo item, James?
cheers
Andy
P.S. Oh - 4th valve?
https://tinyurl.com/4-valve-C-trumpet
this is the answer... _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2472
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | I tried a set on a Getzen Severinsen, REALLY disliked them. |
The irony in that, to my knowledge, the first major project harmonic balancers were used on was for Doc, makes this quite entertaining. . . .
For additional entertainment value, take a look at this horn. This may be the first horn on which Byron demonstrated the concept (it is his Schilke B2). I can imagine Doc's reaction to the look: "What happened to the slides!?".
These early balancing weights look like patches on horribly damaged valve slides - probably why the next iteration of the concept moved to the lugs in the crooks. The further out the mass is on the pendulum, the less mass you need, but the aesthetic of those slabs of brass would just leave people having to explain that they didn't trash their horn - so we have what we see today instead.
_________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Andy, truth be told, years ago Wayne Tanabe at his Brass Bow ship made casing extensions with modular internal weights with a recessed o-ring. His inspiration came from the long casings found on Getzen Eterna Cornets.
Curry makes 1” Magnum bottom caps for Schilke. Perhaps hollowing out CCAPS on a lathe would achieve the desired effect of extending casings without the excess weight. This is something we could do for you. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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