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HoosierBrass Regular Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2021 Posts: 22
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:17 am Post subject: Heavy bottom valve caps |
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What are your thoughts on heavy bottom valve caps? I have had them on my horn for a long time and was just debating the options. I know it can be a personal preference but I am curious to hear the thoughts of others.
Pros? Cons? Thanks for your insight. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2343 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Depends on the horn and the application.
BUT in general, I've gone back to standard weight caps. I find that in the hall, in the ensemble, the extra weight takes away something from the presence of the sound. And takes away my ability to color the sound dark to bright as wanted - tends to lock me into one tone color.
If I was the only trumpet in a small combo, playing on a microphone, not having to blend with or sing over the top of others, there might be a different answer. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Heavy bottom valve caps |
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HoosierBrass wrote: | What are your thoughts on heavy bottom valve caps? I have had them on my horn for a long time and was just debating the options. I know it can be a personal preference but I am curious to hear the thoughts of others.
Pros? Cons? Thanks for your insight. |
You will not get uniformity of opinion from all players on the effect of heavy bottom valve caps. There are no universal pros or cons. Exactly what effect they have and whether they are beneficial, neutral or detrimental depends on the player, the particular horn being played, the type of music involved and especially on the player's own personal perceptions and preferences.
There is no substitute for trying things and drawing your own conclusions. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2069 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: |
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I have a Bach heavy cap on the third valve of the Bach in the signature. I like tighter slotting horns and the cap does support that. I had all three heavy caps on for testing purposes but that was overkill.
The flugel has three B&S heavy caps, works very nicely for improving the slotting and darkening the sound somewhat.
The Schmidt is a lightweight horn and does not have heavy caps. I don’t want the lightweight character of the horn to change. And it really does not need any heavy caps. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9047 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:46 am Post subject: |
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In addition to testing the inteernal responses which only you can do best, it couldn't hurt to also have another listener(or several) you trust, compare the sound of the horn with and without the weights in a blind test, to make sure you're actuallyproducing a better sound.
I don't mean this condescendingly, it's just that this can happen to many of us before we know it. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9379 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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I bought some for my Bach ML 43 years ago, and now they’re in their little case in my trumpet stuff cabinet. They provided slightly better slotting, but the horn slotted well anyway. They seemed to richen (or dull) the tone a bit, but I never asked anyone for a listener’s opinion, so it could have just been a change in feedback. What I didn’t like, was they affected the ease of play above the staff. I’m no screamer, but it seemed to take more effort up there and affected my endurance. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8339 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I've never liked the effect added weight has on any of my horns. I've only tried it on my main players - Yamaha, Benge, maybe my Radial - and I've disliked the change in response and flexibility that results. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 506 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:57 am Post subject: |
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I use a heavy cap only on the third valve of my Conn Vintage One when I'm using the D slide, and I add one of the small weights in addition when I'm using the rounded tuning slide. These are part of the Modular Valve Weight (MVW) system that Conn provided with the Conn V1. I like the extra stability/accuracy it gives me. I find that adding the heavy caps to the first and second valves affects the sound too much...deadens it for lack of a better term. I don't have that issue with adding the weight to the third valve only. _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3320 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:54 am Post subject: |
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I haven't tried heavy caps, but I do have rubber o-rings on the inside of the 3 bottom valve caps. And I tighten those caps only snug enough so they do not loosen.
I think it makes a small change in the sound quality - perhaps a little less bright tone. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 730 Location: SE US
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:34 am Post subject: |
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This from a 2007 thread regarding Brass Valve guides:
MichaelM2 wrote: | Dale, I think you hit it right on the head. You need to be at a certain level to appreciate the nuances these changes make. I spent a whole Saturday afternoon with weighted valve caps before I noticed a difference. When I did notice the difference it wasn't significant to me. For those of us who wander down the road of mediocrity the out of the box horn will usually work fine. Although being trumpet players we just have to tweak it for the psycological aspect.
Mike |
I have a complete set of weighted bottom caps, light weight (skeletonized) valve buttons, lightweight brass springs, and brass valve guides that were included with my 2 owner (counting me) XO Piccolo that appear to have never been used in a plastic sealed (no longer) metallic case. Apparently, the original owner did not see a need to explore, and I'm so new to the Piccolo experience that I don't envision a need for any additional wanderings! Maybe that'll change at some point, we'll see!
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1842 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:51 am Post subject: |
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You might want to take a look at " A weighty question" in the Horns forum Sept 2/21.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157732
I discuss the problem of liking weights in a live practice room or empty hall but not being able to get the correct player feedback i need when being in the middle of a concert band trumpet section.
Some find more of a difference in how the horn feels than in how the horn sounds to others. While I have not found the magic combination of mouthpiece weight, throat, backbore, gap, venturi, etc to make weighted valve caps work in a trumpet section - that doesn't mean that a combination does not exist.
If you have an extra $45 or so by all means get a set of Curry caps. They do something . Just keep in mind that you may or may not like the results. |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2420 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I play a Bach 43 trumpet with lightweight body and bell. A few years back, I experimented with added weight. I use Bach heavy caps, which really aren't that heavy at all, and add about 1.5 ounces in additional weight. This gives me close to a standard weight body, with a lightweight bell. I seems to add just a bit more core to my sound, but preserves the responsiveness and flexibility you get from a lightweight 43 bell.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: |
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A set of heavy caps came with my Conn Vintage 1. I recorded myself playing Stardust with regular weights and then with the heavy weight caps, which made my tone a wee bit darker. I play with a small combo now and then and use the Vintage one with heavy caps, but I prefer regular caps for all my other horns, especially when playing with the band. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3777 Location: AL
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: |
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I use them with a Frankenhorn I own. With the standard caps the horn slotted pretty loosely and I chipped a lot of notes. I put on a set of Pickett heavy bottom caps and the slots firmed up quite a bit to make it optimal for me. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:40 am Post subject: |
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This is what Jason Harrelson says:
https://www.whyharrelson.com/jasons-blog/the-heavy-bottom-cap-myth
Personally, I’ve gone back and forth on them. My own conclusion is that on horns not designed with them, I either don’t like the affect or it doesn’t make much difference.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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JHirakawa Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2022 Posts: 155
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:26 am Post subject: |
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My Kanstul French Besson Classic b-flat came with an extra set of heavy bottom valve caps. They do make a difference. I use a heavy cap on the 3rd valve once and a while when I feel like it. More than that deadens the sound too much. I got a set of brass washers at ACE Hardware for my 1947 Holton Model 48. The OD of the washers are slightly smaller than the ID of the bottom valve caps. Washers in 1st and 3rd valve caps seems to work the best on the Holton. I usually play the horns without the extra mass. Just add the weight them when I feel the urge. Here are the caps and washers for the Holton 48. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Brass_washers_in_trumpet_bottom_valve_caps.jpg _________________ Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles |
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