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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5701 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:43 pm Post subject: Toothpaste Valve Lapping |
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In light of the fact that I'm taking a week off the horn entirely following a total chops meltdown on a gig last Friday night, (posted in another thread) I decided to do a complete cleaning of my trumpet, to include some scrubbing of the slides and valves with toothpaste.
I think in days of old, toothpaste contained pumice. The toothpaste I used - a cheap freebie from my dentist call QUANTUM Fresh - doesn't, but does contain silica, which is the abrasive agent that polishes teeth.
Part of the reason for this is because I'd been having some issues with the 3rd valve - I'd let the horn sit for an extended period when I was issued the Shires Model B by the National Guard band, and I think some deposits may have built up.
In any case, I coated each valve with toothpaste, then carefully inserted them from the bottom, working them around and up and down for a good bit, and I did it to all three valves.
I also scrubbed off all raw brass inner portions of my slides with the same toothpaste.
I did the valves and slides as the first step of the cleaning process, and I made danged sure to get the horn VERY clean afterward. I scrubbed really well with a valve brush and liberally rinsed to make sure I got all toothpaste reside off of everything.
WOW! My valves feel absolutely great now, and any catching I had been getting with the 3rd valve is now completely gone. Even my 1st and 2nd valve feel better than they ever have.
I'll do this as a first resort if/when I ever have valve issues in the future...assuming I didn't damage my chops permanently, but that's another thread for another day. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1540 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:29 pm Post subject: Toothpaste |
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Hello,
I worked in a music store and hung around the shop guys. They would say that toothpaste was a little harsh. But if it works, it works. They used a couple different compounds and always used the least abrasive that they could. When I get my horns back from the shop, the valves and brass slides are all super shiny....and work like glass. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5701 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:26 am Post subject: Re: Toothpaste |
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Christian K. Peters wrote: | Hello,
I worked in a music store and hung around the shop guys. They would say that toothpaste was a little harsh. But if it works, it works. They used a couple different compounds and always used the least abrasive that they could. When I get my horns back from the shop, the valves and brass slides are all super shiny....and work like glass. |
It might be a bit too much, but it's not something I'll do with any regularity - I did want to do something though because mineral deposits will build over time, and I don't think I took enough material off that it damaged anything - I think it just cleaned it up well. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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derekthor Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2012 Posts: 480 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Oil your valves and give your trumpet a bath every couple months and you won’t have to worry about mineral deposits. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5701 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:21 am Post subject: |
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derekthor wrote: | Oil your valves and give your trumpet a bath every couple months and you won’t have to worry about mineral deposits. |
Oh gee - I hadn't thought of that.
In 41 years of playing, this is the only trumpet where I've had any kind of an issue with a valve, and I 100% attribute it to neglect - I mentioned in the first post of this thread that I tossed it in the case in lieu of playing the Shires the National Guard band issued to me and it sat there for a good bit before I pulled it back out.
You know, this is the second thread recently where someone - well-meaning I'm sure - has decided they were going to set me straight, as if I didn't already know. Seriously? Like I don't know about cleaning a horn and oiling the valves? I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'm not that obtuse - especially not with the experience I have as a player.
Just because I'm relating information regarding an issue doesn't mean I don't know what probably caused the issue, or steps to take which can either fix it, or may have avoided it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 667 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Toothpaste works fine if all other options fail, it's just a very very mild polish. _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1289
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos wrote: | Toothpaste works fine if all other options fail, it's just a very very mild polish. |
AND it can make your horn smell minty fresh!
I have lapped valves and slides using other toothpaste brands and light lapping compounds before, so I'm aware of the hassle in cleaning everything before reassembling.
Last edited by dstpt on Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I would first try to clean the inside of the valve casing and the piston with a wetted chamois cloth, re-oil making sure the entire piston surface is covered, actuate the piston multiple times to see if there is any friction remaining. If friction remains, repeat the process checking for presence of black residue on the chamois. If the piston and the casing are not dented, and there is no obvious build-up on the surfaces, this usually helps making the valves silky smooth. I would not use any lapping compound at all - no need to re-do what was done at the factory. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | I would first try to clean the inside of the valve casing and the piston with a wetted chamois cloth, re-oil making sure the entire piston surface is covered, actuate the piston multiple times to see if there is any friction remaining. If friction remains, repeat the process checking for presence of black residue on the chamois. If the piston and the casing are not dented, and there is no obvious build-up on the surfaces, this usually helps making the valves silky smooth. I would not use any lapping compound at all - no need to re-do what was done at the factory. |
Based on his earlier post, I suspect that a seasoned player like Patrick knows how to care for his trumpet. But there is value reminding other readers who might not be as experienced what to try.
Based on the issues reported on here over the years I suspect that there are cases where gentle lapping is occasionally necessary.
In Patrick’s case it is possible that the valve oil dried out and left a little residue that was removed during the toothpaste treatment. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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If the material to be removed is sludge (dried out oil), I think the solvent of choice would be naphtha or rubbing alcohol, followed by drying, rinse with soapy water, rinse with water and drying with chamois cloth. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5701 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Based on his earlier post, I suspect that a seasoned player like Patrick knows how to care for his trumpet. But there is value reminding other readers who might not be as experienced what to try.
Based on the issues reported on here over the years I suspect that there are cases where gentle lapping is occasionally necessary.
In Patrick’s case it is possible that the valve oil dried out and left a little residue that was removed during the toothpaste treatment. |
When I first broke that horn back out for a classic rock band gig last October, I was having some serious issues with the 3rd valve - it mostly went away with just a cursory cleaning, oiling and playing, but it would start to catch here and there if I didn't keep fresh oil on it. The valves on this trumpet are stainless steel, and I've never had an issue with monel - or at least my body chemistry seems to get along ok with monel.
Suffice it to say, I seriously doubt if I took enough material off to have done anything detrimental to the horn - we're talking about extremely fine silica, and I didn't abrade it for very long. These valves have always been pretty danged tight, to the point where I had to be picky about the valve oil I was using. Something that would be nice would be if I improved the valve slickness enough to be able to use the lighter valve springs. I always kept in the heavier springs because I felt I needed to. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Could it be the result of poor wetting of the piston surface by the oil? |
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 395 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:23 am Post subject: |
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• Second hand info from a Chicago-connected player in the '60s and '70s — Ren Schilke (50+ years ago) was firm in recommending only Colgate (regular) for DIY valve lapping. It's ranked as "Low Abrasive" on the chart that is linked, below
• Many current toothpastes have additives that would not be beneficial to lapping or to subsequent valve performance
• Toothpastes have a very broad range of abrasiveness. Here's a link to a fairly current chart ranking abrasiveness by RDA (Relative Dentin Abrasion) Value
— https://tinyurl.com/zhvych5z
—Denny |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5701 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:26 am Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | Could it be the result of poor wetting of the piston surface by the oil? |
Good grief - I've oiled a valve or two in the 40+ years I've been on this instrument - there was a legit issue with it.
Denny Schreffler wrote: | • Second hand info from a Chicago-connected player in the '60s and '70s — Ren Schilke (50+ years ago) was firm in recommending only Colgate (regular) for DIY valve lapping. It's ranked as "Low Abrasive" on the chart that is linked, below
• Many current toothpastes have additives that would not be beneficial to lapping or to subsequent valve performance
• Toothpastes have a very broad range of abrasiveness. Here's a link to a fairly current chart ranking abrasiveness by RDA (Relative Dentin Abrasion) Value
— https://tinyurl.com/zhvych5z
—Denny |
Had I known about that chart, I may not have used the toothpaste I used - I didn't find that until just last night, and unfortunately the paste I used is not listed on it. Fortunately it seems to be a pretty run-of-the-mill paste - this particular brand is what dentists buy in bulk to give to their patients for free after a visit - I can't say for certain that it's a lower abrasive paste, but the high abrasive pastes seem to be tartar control or whitening pastes - not what I used. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3366 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:59 am Post subject: |
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The main point is to NOT use 'discipline' or 'tough love' on the valves to make them work better.
Start with products and procedures that are least likely to cause changes to the basic metal parts - e.g. do basic cleaning, and oiling (perhaps with different types of oils).
If the valves do have some hardened mineral deposits, gentle basic cleaning might not be enough - and mechanical removal would be needed. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5701 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:51 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | The main point is to NOT use 'discipline' or 'tough love' on the valves to make them work better.
Start with products and procedures that are least likely to cause changes to the basic metal parts - e.g. do basic cleaning, and oiling (perhaps with different types of oils).
If the valves do have some hardened mineral deposits, gentle basic cleaning might not be enough - and mechanical removal would be needed. |
Whose main point? That wasn't my main point and this is my thread. My main point was to say that after a gentle lapping/cleaning with toothpaste that all three of my valves are working wonderfully, and I'm pretty sure I didn't damage things in the process.
I had no idea a thread about cleaning valves with toothpaste was going to cause this kind of disagreement. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3366 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:05 am Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | ... and this is my thread. My main point was to say that after a gentle lapping/cleaning with toothpaste that all three of my valves are working wonderfully, and I'm pretty sure I didn't damage things in the process.
... |
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Sorry, but this isn't 'your thread' - it's a thread on TH that you started.
After the ball starts rolling, you don't have a lot of control over its direction!
And yes, your description of what you did and its results were very clearly stated. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5701 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | trickg wrote: | ... and this is my thread. My main point was to say that after a gentle lapping/cleaning with toothpaste that all three of my valves are working wonderfully, and I'm pretty sure I didn't damage things in the process.
... |
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Sorry, but this isn't 'your thread' - it's a thread on TH that you started.
After the ball starts rolling, you don't have a lot of control over its direction!
And yes, your description of what you did and its results were very clearly stated. |
This is the kind of post that makes we want to take my toys and go home, and why I've taken lengthy hiatuses in the past. Thanks for that. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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AnthonyinVT Regular Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2021 Posts: 20 Location: Montgomery Center VT
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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To get back to the original post, I am having a similar issue with a French
Besson Meha that has been in storage for 48 years. I bought this trumpet new, played it for about a year and then it went into the closet until recently. The 3rd valve is sticking the most, followed by the 2nd valve. I oil the valves daily and I can play it, but it was not like this when new. When I look at the casings, I can see a rust coloration. I'm certain this is where the issue is. I've washed the horn in warm water with a tad of dish detergent in it, run a casing brush through it, run a wash cloth throuth the casings, etc. Still slow. I thought about the toothpaste treatment, but am wondering if there is something else I can do to remove the deposits in the casing that may be milder. I have been playing it daily for two months and the valve action has improved but not significantly. _________________ ARM |
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robrtx Regular Member
Joined: 31 May 2012 Posts: 12 Location: Hawaii
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1002348
There are some good suggestions by some respected members in this older thread (including the toothpaste method that Patrick used) that might be helpful.
Cheers, _________________ Bob
Bb: Schilke
Flglhn: Adams F1 |
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