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Student Trumpet versus Professional


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acerimele
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:17 pm    Post subject: Student Trumpet versus Professional Reply with quote

What is the big picture difference between a student trumpet and a professional trumpet. I would think overall quality, sound and price.

If a student, say with 3 years experience, were to play on a professional model would that hamper their ability to grow and refine their skill versus student.

Any feed back would be great.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Student Trumpet versus Professional Reply with quote

acerimele wrote:
What is the big picture difference between a student trumpet and a professional trumpet. I would think overall quality, sound and price.

Quality of materials. Quality of design. Quality control. Quality of assembly. Also, quality of sound, response, flexibility, stability, etc.

Frankly, there's a LOT of space within what is called a "student" trumpet let alone a "professional" trumpet. With the prevalence of random branded, Chinese built instruments at various prices, one has to ask if you're asking if they would count as a "student" instrument, or perhaps something of even a lower category.

Not to say everything from China is poor, it's just unknown. When you buy a Yamaha trumpet, it was made by Yamaha, in Yamaha owned factories, possibly in Yamaha owned factories in China, Indonesia, or elsewhere, but still made under the supervision of Yamaha with their rather good Quality Control.

Compare that with an "Eastar," "Yasisid," "Mendini," or "Jean Paul" trumpet. The first two are just random brands. Mendini is now a common internet brand that been around for at least a decade, but I can't find any actual links to a company website with a brief Google search. Jean Paul has an actual website, at least and is pretending to be a music company. All of these companies have their instruments made for them in random factories in China, stamped Eastar or Mendini or whatever, and sell them. Is one Eastar made in the same factory as another? Is there any consistency between various instruments? Who knows? Does the company care? Who knows, as long as they sell their sub $200 units.

Aside from that, the student trumpet is generally a trumpet that is designed to play reasonably well at a affordable price point. Sometimes they're built to be more robust, to stand up to more negligent handling, sometimes they're maybe a little easier to play (but really, isn't that a good quality for any instrument? - but in general, the defining quality of a student instrument is that it's not exceptionally expensive. A new, student level instrument from a major, reputable maker costs between $700-1200, roughly.

Some of them do play fairly well, though. The Getzen student trumpet has nice valves and plays well. The Yamaha student horns are pretty good. The Kanstul student model trumpet played rather well when it was still being made.

Professional trumpets are generally made with more focus on how it plays rather than how much it costs. To be clear, this is in regards to reputable makers "professional" horns - any maker can call any horn "professional" if they want - it's just a marketing term. However, reputable ones try to make their best playing horns, their most labor and design intensive models as their "professional" horns.

Generally, they have better materials, have more process in their design, are assembled with more care, and parts may be made by hand, possibly. More experienced workers (and thus more expensive) are involved in their production.

This is all pretty general, but it has to be. There is a lot of variation with a "professional" trumpet. Some are heavy, some are very light, some respond quickly, some less so. Some have more stable playability, some are more flexible. Ideally, they have good intonation and can produce a nice tone. The qualities of the tone might vary, and frankly, most of the tone of a trumpet is dependent on the player.


acerimele wrote:
If a student, say with 3 years experience, were to play on a professional model would that hamper their ability to grow and refine their skill versus student.

No, not really.

I taught beginner band for almost two decades. The real issue is that beginners are not careful with their instruments, in general. They might try to be, they might be pretty careful themselves, but even if they are, they are surrounded by 4-7 graders (9-12 year olds), so that is a hazarous environment as a whole. Knocking a student horn off the chair is one thing, but knocking a $3000-4000 professional trumpet off a chair is .... extremely unfortunate.

Plus, a lot of beginners quit. That's just how it is. A used trumpet is worth quite a bit less than a new one, so less upfront investment makes sense. Also, most music stores have trials and rental programs to get people going and see how it is.

That also makes used trumpets a great deal. A new student Yamaha might be near $1000, in total - but a used one is between $150-300. A professional Yamaha trumpet might go for around $3000, but a used one could be had for between $1200-2000.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Student Trumpet versus Professional Reply with quote

acerimele wrote:
What is the big picture difference between a student trumpet and a professional trumpet. I would think overall quality, sound and price.

Yes, though there's no hard defined line that separates the two, and it's made extra fuzzy by marketing terminology as well. In very general terms, a 'professional instrument' is made with greater care, paying more attention to details and finetuning in both design, materials and work, with the goal of making the instrument play as well as possible. A 'student instrument' on the other hand, is made to play as well as possible with a limited budget and serial or mass production in mind to make the project financially viable. (The 3rd category, 'intermediate instruments' generally consists of student models with a few additional features at an inflated price, which are often considered not worth the additional money).

tl;dr professional instruments are built primarily for quality, student instruments are built primarily to be affordable.

acerimele wrote:
If a student, say with 3 years experience, were to play on a professional model would that hamper their ability to grow and refine their skill versus student.

Depends on the student and the instrument, but generally it won't harm their development...often it actually helps them. But keep in mind that gear isn't a substitue for practice.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest difference is price point. Parents generally need something that allows their child to explore without a big financial risk to the parents. They want something that will survive their child's treatment of the thing. Beyond that, it's the very same game as professional grade instruments. It all depends on who is building them.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I regard price as the primary factor and durability as the second. Manufacturers need to be able to make student horns inexpensive enough for the parents of 4-6 graders to be willing to give them a try, and good enough to encourage the child to stick with the horn and be ready for, and interested in, a professional model by high school age. Quality and parts availability also need to be good enough for the music store that rents out the student trumpets to be able to keep them in good repair.

This...breaks down...with manufacturers that don't make professional-quality instruments. They focus on making their student-level trumpets as inexpensively as they reasonably can, not worrying about things like durability, repairability or someone wanting to step-up to the next level horn under that brand name.
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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would arguie that student trumpets are intended to hit a certain price point, which means ease of manufacture, as far as consistent with that, they are intended to be robust so that the little dears don't destroy them quickly, and as far as consistent with those two goals, they are intended for ease of sound production, sacrificing flexibility and tonal coloration if necessary.

I've mentioned in other messages I have a Yamaha 2335. It plays well enough that nobody complains, but it is definitely more work to play. Like many student horns, it blows a little tight. Above the staff it is like parallel parking a garbage truck. The pitch is quite good, which is a good thing, since if you deviate from the horn's pitch center it will put up a fight.

It is very, very good for what it is. But the gap between it and my "least good good horn", a Burbank 5*, is bigger than the gap between any of my good horns.

That said, the "intermediate" 4335 and 5335 are really, really excellent. I can see a pro preferring them to a "pro" horn, especially if he is looking for a tighter horn.


Last edited by Tom LeCompte on Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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hackney_wick
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom LeCompte wrote:

That said, the "intermediate" 4335 and 5335 are really, really excellent. I can see a pro preferring them to a "pro" horn, especially if he is looking for a tighter horn.


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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never played a 3-series.
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NickF
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Student Trumpet versus Professional Reply with quote

acerimele wrote:
The biggest difference is price point. Parents generally need something that allows their child to explore without a big financial risk to the parents. They want something that will survive their child's treatment of the thing. Beyond that, it's the very same game as professional grade instruments. It all depends on who is building them.Sometimes this behavior can resemble the behavior of the casino administration, when they try to give you less service for more money as a user. By the way, this was one of the reasons that I decided to play in an online casino using, for example one dollar deposit casino In my opinion, it saves more honesty and All eyes are on the game. Also with the purchase of expensive instruments. On the one hand, manufacturers rarely make high-quality tools with good fittings for an average price. And I understand why parents want to save money. But the game should bring pleasure first of all and this must be remembered.


I think that in terms of sound quality you will not always feel the difference in sound between a student instrument and a professional one. Professional tools are usually made from better materials and are more pleasant to hold. But I would not say that they sound much better.
I have several tools and only one of them can be called professional. I don't like buying expensive instruments just because I have to come and see it, hear how it sounds. And I noticed that it often happens that on an expensive instrument there are minor flaws. Yes, they are small, they can be easily eliminated, but when buying an expensive tool, you do not want to do this. The difficulty also lies in the fact that there are usually few expensive options in the store. But there are usually many cheaper student options and you always have a better choice when buying.


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huntman10
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, my contention is that we are talking as if the choice is binary, or perhaps a 3 option rating or of student, intermediate, and pro. Maybe divided along price point and build quality. I first want to add the classification of TSO's (trumpet shaped objects, and I disclaim inventing the term, as I learned it years ago on TH.) For purposes of controlling the scope of my discussion I would like not to consider novelty instruments or odd key trumpets.

I would group TSO's as poorly designed, constructed, or made of inferior or improper materials. Another problem seen in TSO'S would be flimsy construction, or instruments that are not repairable. Unfortunately, as previously covered by Crazy Finn, many people, simply using price point, assign TSO's to the student trumpet pile, while we need to be aware that they are not appropriate for beginners. Student trumpets should be robust and repairable, so as not to frustrate students (and parents). Also, I feel that student level trumpets should not be too "edgy" or brilliant to insure better tone and easy to blend.

On the other hand, "professional level" trumpets have much tighter tolerances that can make them inappropriate for kids, if a little dirt makes it into the wrong places, or a slight impact on the 3rd slide locks the valve. Also, a lot of pro level horns have lighter, thinner bells and slides. Just imagine the New York Strad I saw after a year in the 5th grade band!
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Kanstul was in business, I had it on good authority that the student model 700 was made under the same quality controls (such as they were) and standards as their professional models (which in some cases retailed for thousands of dollars more). The 700 had a two-piece bell, which differed very little from their 900 "intermediate" model, which had a one-piece bell. The 900 compared to some of their professional horns was only badging - and pricing.

When Olds was producing instruments, the only thing that separated the professional horns from their student model (the Ambassador) was water keys and bracing (and, of course, price).

The answer to your second question is, therefore, obvious.
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nick Drozdoff plays a Getzen 490 student model as his daily driver and he loves it. He owns other more professional model trumpets but prefers the 490 for most of his work.

To invoke a cliche, it's the archer more than the arrow.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Blackwell wrote:
When Olds was producing instruments, the only thing that separated the professional horns from their student model (the Ambassador) was water keys and bracing (and, of course, price).

Olds was a 1-tolerance shop yes, and they did re-use certain parts (like the valve block) for various models. But to claim there’s hardly any difference is quite a stretch. Olds’ professional models had a lot of features the Ambassador lacked, such as different leadpipe & bell materials, variations in wrap, triggers, bell garlands and off-set valves. Many of the Olds cornets have different wraps, and the Super cornet even uses Olds’ trumpet valve block instead of their cornet one. Now, whether these features make an appreciatable difference when you play them is another matter, but you can’t say Olds didn’t at least try to make their professional instruments differ from their student models (and oneanother).

Yamaha may be a better example for your argument; if I’m not mistaken they have had a policy of adding features from their professional line to their student models (which may be one of the reasons why Yamaha’s play so well).
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
... Olds was a 1-tolerance shop yes, and they did re-use certain parts (like the valve block) for various models. But to claim there’s hardly any difference is quite a stretch. Olds’ professional models had a lot of features the Ambassador lacked, such as different leadpipe & bell materials, variations in wrap, triggers, bell garlands and off-set valves. Many of the Olds cornets have different wraps, and the Super cornet even uses Olds’ trumpet valve block instead of their cornet one. Now, whether these features make an appreciable difference when you play them is another matter, but you can’t say Olds didn’t at least try to make their professional instruments differ from their student models (and one another). ...

I should have been more specific. I was referring specifically to the Olds Mendez model, which was essentially a "beefed-up" Ambassador.

And IIRC, Olds only had one bell mandrel. Only the wraps, garnishes, and thicknesses changed.

There have been a number of discussions here on this topic.

One example I could find: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24889&sid=f0b69555c8aafd335193792ac37b680c
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
The biggest difference is price point. Parents generally need something that allows their child to explore without a big financial risk to the parents. They want something that will survive their child's treatment of the thing. Beyond that, it's the very same game as professional grade instruments. It all depends on who is building them.


As a matter of fact, you will be informed that my baby will stop and the voice will be heard from you. The real thing is that it is stable – this is the improvement of cartoons and computers funny games. If you are a child, you may want to use your watch every day mahjong puzzle free online All eastern countries, all improvements are guaranteed, of course It might be normal. Learn about different sports, play on musical instruments.
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nick ~

Are you a politician ?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
Nick ~

Are you a politician ?


Nick appears to be a bot.
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Jimbosan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bill Blackwell"][quote="stuartissimo"]... O
I should have been more specific. I was referring specifically to the Olds Mendez model, which was essentially a "beefed-up" Ambassador.

I thought the Mendez was essentially a "beefed-up" F. Besson/Benge?
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Jimbosan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with others that you should use Yamaha, Jupliter, or Getzern as a baseline for "student" trumpets. If your child starts with one of those, it will be many years before the horn holds them back. The trumpet would still be good enough to use for marching band practice. Save the Zenos and Strads for concerts and lessons. "Pro" trumpets are designed to produce a particular tone, slotting, resistance, look, efficiency, to fit the feel you want and type of music you are going to use it for. Some are more versitile in that regard than others. You would expect the quality to be better at the prices you will be paying. You probably won't know what kind of "Pro" trumpet you really want until you are an advanced player. That's probably why a Bach Strad 37 is the most common first choice.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Blackwell wrote:
... the Olds Mendez model, which was essentially a "beefed-up" Ambassador.

And IIRC, Olds only had one bell mandrel. Only the wraps, garnishes, and thicknesses changed.


I'm sorry, but neither of those statements are true.
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