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Getzen Copra-Temp


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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:44 pm    Post subject: Getzen Copra-Temp Reply with quote

A customer brought me this copper-bell Getzen to service:





What was amazing about the horn was the valve guide mechanism:



The rounded teat shown protruding runs in a race inside the casing, and being rounded it presents much less surface to make noise.
But the other side of the mechanism was what killed me:





A tiny wheel acts as a tensioner to further reduce noise and is held in the brass casing by a steel screw. And indeed, the valves were silent when I got finished. Can you imagine the amount of work that went into doing this?
Horn was 57XXX, don't know how old that would be.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That first leadpipe brace is pretty wild, too. Don't see that many soldered to the mouthpiece receiver!
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
That first leadpipe brace is pretty wild, too. Don't see that many soldered to the mouthpiece receiver!


All my Getzen horns have that.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
That first leadpipe brace is pretty wild, too. Don't see that many soldered to the mouthpiece receiver!


All my Getzen horns have that.


I'm curious, Man of C.S., how many of your old Getzens have this type of valve guide mechanism? I don't recall seeing it before. (could be my memory!)
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
That first leadpipe brace is pretty wild, too. Don't see that many soldered to the mouthpiece receiver!


All my Getzen horns have that.


I'm curious, Man of C.S., how many of your old Getzens have this type of valve guide mechanism? I don't recall seeing it before. (could be my memory!)

I thought he was referring to the brace being soldered to the mouthpiece receiver, not the valve guide mechanism.
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Croquethed
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
I'm curious, Man of C.S., how many of your old Getzens have this type of valve guide mechanism? I don't recall seeing it before. (could be my memory!)


I have a Copra-Temp that can't be dated because of the fire, but my valve guide is identical to the one you showed. Interesting, but the valve cap threads are so thin you have to be careful not to cross-thread them.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
That first leadpipe brace is pretty wild, too. Don't see that many soldered to the mouthpiece receiver!


All my Getzen horns have that.


I'm curious, Man of C.S., how many of your old Getzens have this type of valve guide mechanism? I don't recall seeing it before. (could be my memory!)

I thought he was referring to the brace being soldered to the mouthpiece receiver, not the valve guide mechanism.


Yes, but he implied having more than one, and I'm just curious how common this was on these old Getzens.
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
That first leadpipe brace is pretty wild, too. Don't see that many soldered to the mouthpiece receiver!


All my Getzen horns have that.


I'm curious, Man of C.S., how many of your old Getzens have this type of valve guide mechanism? I don't recall seeing it before. (could be my memory!)


Hang on, a bit.
My horns are not all in one location. However; most of my Getzens are (I think?). And - - they are generally vintage. Some pre-fire, some post-fire.

Will post at another time. Soon, hopefully.
(I'm older now. I forget stuff. PLUS, I have a lot going on.)
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
That first leadpipe brace is pretty wild, too. Don't see that many soldered to the mouthpiece receiver!


All my Getzen horns have that.


I'm curious, Man of C.S., how many of your old Getzens have this type of valve guide mechanism? I don't recall seeing it before. (could be my memory!)

I thought he was referring to the brace being soldered to the mouthpiece receiver, not the valve guide mechanism.


Yes, but he implied having more than one, and I'm just curious how common this was on these old Getzens.

Sorry about that. I admit knowing you personally and from your posts my interpretation of your post was puzzling.
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
That first leadpipe brace is pretty wild, too. Don't see that many soldered to the mouthpiece receiver!


All my Getzen horns have that.


I'm curious, Man of C.S., how many of your old Getzens have this type of valve guide mechanism? I don't recall seeing it before. (could be my memory!)


Hello, yourbrass ~

I have accessed five(5) of my vintage Getzen horns. I believe (?) I have a few more, in a remote location, about 125-miles distant, in another state. Unable to get there for a few weeks.

Here we go ....

First up, a trumpet similar to the one you have shown. It is an "Artist Model" with a Sterling Silver bell. Serial #504xx. It has the same feature on the valves that you are showing on that Copra-Temp trumpet.

Next, a Super-Delluxe (American style long-cornet), Serial #653xx.
It has that valve detail/feature as your Copra-Temp trumpet.

Next, a very rare, mint/N.O.S. "Flugel-Bugle", serial #639xx. It has the valve feature.

Next, a very old Model 80 American long-style cornet, serial #55xx, with underslung 3rd-valve throw-ring. It does NOT have that detail on the valves.

Last, another old Model 80 American long-style cornet, serial #68xx (with the underslung 3rd valve throw-ring). Does NOT have the valve feature.

I recall another old (4-digit serial-number) trumpet ... I'm thinking it is a Model 90 (with underslung 3rd-valve throw-ring) trumpet. In far-away storage.

Happy to be of assistance.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That valve guide system was referred to as “Roller Bearing” valve guides. It was advertised as being “patent pending” although there was never any record of the company filing for a patent.

I’m not certain when the Roller Bearing system started, but every Super Deluxe trumpet and cornet I have ever seen has had them. They are pretty cool, but not all that practical.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and best guess, a 57,000 serial number would be somewhere in the later 1950’s.
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect yet another brilliant and well-functioning design that was just too costly to produce at scale for the price point that the market will bear. Many engineered products fall into this category. I suspect the York Feathertouch valves were another one in the trumpet valve category. Amazing valves that live up to their name! But all the extra little bits and parts and machining and assembly time for a pretty small market and only an incremental improvement over existing simpler tech.

But it’s super cool to hold such an interesting piece of well-designed technology such as those Getzen and York valves, eh?
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ConnArtist wrote:
I suspect yet another brilliant and well-functioning design that was just too costly to produce at scale for the price point that the market will bear.

Actually, a very experienced tech (might have been Charlie Melk) told me that those roller bearing valve guides were troublesome from a maintenance perspective -- they tended to get dirty or worn somehow so that the valve action became very poor.

I tried a horn with these once, and the valve action was indeed pretty bad.

I'm sure Brett can add a much better-informed clarification on why he said they weren't all that practical.
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
ConnArtist wrote:
I suspect yet another brilliant and well-functioning design that was just too costly to produce at scale for the price point that the market will bear.

Actually, a very experienced tech (might have been Charlie Melk) told me that those roller bearing valve guides were troublesome from a maintenance perspective -- they tended to get dirty or worn somehow so that the valve action became very poor.

I tried a horn with these once, and the valve action was indeed pretty bad.

I'm sure Brett can add a much better-informed clarification on why he said they weren't all that practical.


Hmmm… and here I assumed the extra roller bearing and fancy whatzits meant better performance! Maybe it did for the first week… ha! Well I *do* have the feathertouch valves and can attest to their performance! So perhaps Getzen abandoned their design more for performance failure than cost and complexity. Though complexity tends to increase failure rates without constant attention… something most trumpeters aren’t exactly known for
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"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ConnArtist wrote:
Well I *do* have the feathertouch valves and can attest to their performance!

I've got a York Feather Touch Master Cornet (also a York Airflow cornet and trumpet with regular bottom-sprung valves), and the "feathertouch" valves do work pretty well.

I actually saw pictures of a Hawkes & Son "The Clipper" cornet that had bottom-sprung feathertouch (expansion spring) valves! How's that for exotic?

(Someday I'd like to commission a one-off 'ultra York' with an Airflow wrap and bottom-sprung feathertouch valves!)
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
ConnArtist wrote:
Well I *do* have the feathertouch valves and can attest to their performance!

I've got a York Feather Touch Master Cornet (also a York Airflow cornet and trumpet with regular bottom-sprung valves), and the "feathertouch" valves do work pretty well.

I actually saw pictures of a Hawkes & Son "The Clipper" cornet that had bottom-sprung feathertouch (expansion spring) valves! How's that for exotic?

(Someday I'd like to commission a one-off 'ultra York' with an Airflow wrap and bottom-sprung feathertouch valves!)


OLDLOU (Lou Van Koevering) sold me his York AirFlow silver cornet.

He was quite the York expert, having worked for a long time at the Grand Rapids works.
He and I became well-acquainted. Swapped several horns between us.

He DID NOT have a high opinion of the FeatherTouch valves.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
That first leadpipe brace is pretty wild, too. Don't see that many soldered to the mouthpiece receiver!


All my Getzen horns have that.


I'm curious, Man of C.S., how many of your old Getzens have this type of valve guide mechanism? I don't recall seeing it before. (could be my memory!)


Hello, yourbrass ~

I have accessed five(5) of my vintage Getzen horns. I believe (?) I have a few more, in a remote location, about 125-miles distant, in another state. Unable to get there for a few weeks.

Here we go ....

First up, a trumpet similar to the one you have shown. It is an "Artist Model" with a Sterling Silver bell. Serial #504xx. It has the same feature on the valves that you are showing on that Copra-Temp trumpet.

Next, a Super-Delluxe (American style long-cornet), Serial #653xx.
It has that valve detail/feature as your Copra-Temp trumpet.

Next, a very rare, mint/N.O.S. "Flugel-Bugle", serial #639xx. It has the valve feature.

Next, a very old Model 80 American long-style cornet, serial #55xx, with underslung 3rd-valve throw-ring. It does NOT have that detail on the valves.

Last, another old Model 80 American long-style cornet, serial #68xx (with the underslung 3rd valve throw-ring). Does NOT have the valve feature.

I recall another old (4-digit serial-number) trumpet ... I'm thinking it is a Model 90 (with underslung 3rd-valve throw-ring) trumpet. In far-away storage.

Happy to be of assistance.


Thanks very much.
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Edwards X-13
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
That valve guide system was referred to as “Roller Bearing” valve guides. It was advertised as being “patent pending” although there was never any record of the company filing for a patent.

I’m not certain when the Roller Bearing system started, but every Super Deluxe trumpet and cornet I have ever seen has had them. They are pretty cool, but not all that practical.


Thank you, Brett, very much.
This horn was pretty clean, so it was a good example of how the system was supposed to work. And thanks for the date, hard to find this type of info.
-Lionel
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:

OLDLOU (Lou Van Koevering) sold me his York AirFlow silver cornet.

He was quite the York expert, having worked for a long time at the Grand Rapids works.
He and I became well-acquainted. Swapped several horns between us.

He DID NOT have a high opinion of the FeatherTouch valves.


The trumpet world lost a massive wealth of knowledge when we lost OLDLOU, may he rest in peace

So did he not like the Feathertouch valves for being a P.I.T.A. to manufacture and optimize before letting out the door? Or did he have qualms about their performance and/or maintenance?

My Feathertouch Master is more of a museum piece that I take care of and tootle once every passing of a comet or so... so the valves are always in perfect order and perform magnificently. Perhaps they're a different story if used daily?
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1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML
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