Tuning a brass instrument

[CraigTheBrit]

Does anyone know the best way to ensure that when a student plays a tuning note on their brass instrument, they are hitting the true frequency of their horn?

[Yoinks]

Well, there really is no way at first. It takes a long time of playing, and even then it usually does not happen. The reason?? Most ensembles play quite sharp, at varying degrees. I brought a tuner to a professional orchestra concert once out of curiosity, and they were tuning to about A448. Just teach them to listen for a good full sound, and then listen and adjust to an ensemble around them. I have friends who have perfect pitch who claim they would gladly give it away, because they find it hard to play purposefully out of tune a little bit to adjust to an ensemble when they need to. Good relative pitch is much more usefull in the end.

[Ronnie]

Yonkis,

Very interesting topic. You say that most groups of musicians play slightly sharp. Why is that?

Additionally, when practicing should I continually to tun my horn with the electronic tuner.

Ronnie

[_Don Herman]

I sometimes use a tuner to get close, but ultimately have to play in tune with the group (be it orchestra, piano, or whatever). I listen for (sub)harmonics to see if I'm getting it right -- more exacting than listening for beats.

I might use a tuner now and then to check pitches, but don't play with it on constantly unless that's all I'm doing. Too distracting (from the music), and too many chords require some notes to be intentionally sharp or flat to sound good (something my teacher is trying to teach me, wth limited success ).

I seem to recall bands tuning the upper brass slightly shaper because the audience felt it sounded brighter and more exciting, but I could be mistaken.

I assume by "true frequency of the horn" you mean the pitch center (isn't that what we want to do with the oboes? )*. Others on this forum will give you a better answer, but for starters it's finding where the horn resonates its best. Pick a note, any note, and bend it up and down a bit, with somebody listening if possibel. Otherwise, use a recording or play into a wall. Certain pitches should sort of "jump out" and sound fuller, as well as really projecting (that's where the friend helps -- can trumpet players actually have friends?) You can adjust your slides to make that pitch the one in tune with everybody else (or your tuner, if that's what you're doing). The Monette site has some info on the pitch center, and it's not hype. It can be demonstrated with any horn and player. The hard part is learning to listen for it, and use it, in everday playing.

HTH - Don

* Perfect pitch: when you toss the banjo into the dumpster, it lands on the oboes, clarinets, and violins.
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[CraigTheBrit]

I had a conversation with Rod Franks (Principal Trumpet Player of the LSO) regarding tuning, and he said in his experience he found that the woodwind section tends to go sharper during the course of a rehearsal/concert session, and therefore the brass section had to adjust accordingly.
Maybe that is why an ensemble is sharp.

Back to my original question though...

I read an article by Mark Van Cleave called "Efficiency through Resonant Tuning" (see http://www.v-zone.com/mvc/mvcresintonation.html ), which got me thinking about how to ensure your horn (not the player) was perfectly in tune with the ensemble.

I teach the brass ensemble of a drum corps in the UK, where we encourage the players to really use their ears when playing in the ensemble (ultimately listening for overtones to tune to - is this the same as sub-harmonics?). Sometimes we will not tune their horns at all making them really work hard. Anyway, the show they are playing this year is very stamina demanding. Based on what Mark Van Cleave says the closer the tuning of the horn (not the player) is to the tuning of the ensemble the less stamina demanding the performance becomes.

When we do tune the brass ensemble we tune each member with an electronic tuner, making them play a scale up to the tuning note (i.e. providing reference to the tuning note). Does this make them play the horn in its true tuning frequency? Or is there something else we could try?

[ This Message was edited by: CraigTheBrit on 2002-03-06 05:21 ]

[_bugleboy]

Get rid of the electronic tuners. Use your ears.

In High School and College, I've seen too much being made out of tuning up, and very little about how to play in tune. Spend 10-15 minutes a day playing chorales.

[_Don Herman]

My teacher has me working to play in tune with him. Really in tune. Not by beats, but by listening for difference tones (they sound like a buzz while you're playing). If you are in tune, these will sound nice, e.g. a tone a third below or above, etc. You can generate them with a piano or tuner, but it's harder (fewer overtones to lock in). I'm convinced this is what separates the fantastic brass sections from the merely really great. When you're in tune with each other, the harmonics (undertones and overtones, if you prefer) really fill in the sound top to bottom. If you (or the group you're listening to) are not in tune, those difference tones sound "off" (the chord) and will grate on you even if you don't consciously hear them.

My 1c (the economy, don'tcha' know) - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[elbobogrande]

Great point bugleboy.

Even when I play alone, I personally like how the trumpet (my trumpet?) sounds when tuned slightly, but perceivably, sharper than A=440 (about A=446-448). Among other reasons, I feel that at this frequency the overtones of the horn are more evenly spaced, and the horn seems to slot a bit better. Does anyone else experience this?

Another related experience: I find that, by listening, I can tune my horn to the point where I think it sounds best, and when I check it electronically or with a tuning fork or piano (whose accurate tuning I am sure of), it consistantly lands between that A=446-448. Has anyone else experimented with this?

I guess that my point is that maybe we don't give the human ear the credit that it deserves regarding pitch perception and accurate pitch memory. I realize that all of this perception is within a single tuning note, but is there any way to develop this pitch perception further?

By these personal experiences, it doesn't seem unreasonable that we could develop pitch-recognition further.

Sorry to venture off-topic a bit. Maybe I'll start a new thread with this. If anyone has experience with ear training beyond relative pitch development, I would be interested to hear.

John

[CraigTheBrit]

I agree with bugleboy, that using your ears is far more important than being in tune with a tuner. For the purposes of vertical intonation it is necessary to make adjustments to the notes you play so that they fit within the ensemble chord. (i.e. you could play the same note in two different chords, but it is unlikely that you would play it exactly the same). As you say chorals (and chord progressions) are useful exersises for this purpose. This we already do!

However, for the purposes of stamina (according to Mark Van Cleave) it make sense to get the horn's frequency on a tuning note to be in-tune with the ensemble tuning as much is possible. If it is then:

a) the horn should resonate better, and consequently an ensemble sound will be far greater (I'm sure overtones or harmonics would ring better)

b) the player will find it easier to play the horn in tune with the ensemble, i.e. the adjustments they have to make will be finer. Stamina will also be greater (if MVC is right).

[zachenos]

[_Don Herman]

Huh? What you'd say?

Thanks, Zach, and yes, we do 'em on picc too -- when I bring the wee beastie (rare). We more often get higher difference tones on the piccs, probably due to their "wee" nature. It's harder (for me, anyway) to find and sustain them on the picc -- good ear training!

All the best (tuning) - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[OCTA-C]

When I have done studio work I first use the tuner and then use my ear to retune to the primary instrument that is physically untunable at that time. An example would be an accordion or a concertina. These instruments use four sets of metal reeds to achieve their tonic note. One set may be tuned slightly off from the other to get that earthiel sound. We then lay down or record some tuning pitches on those instruments for reference at a later date. Pianos can also be a problem at times. Depending on the session, the atmospherics in the studio can run havack on it. My horns change constantly during a session. All in all, the consensus seems to be to use tuner first and then by ear with the rest of the ensemble. Am I correct?

Thanks!
_________________
Jay S.

"May the good sound be yours!"

"Always remember to blow into the proper end of the horn!"-circa. 1900 (Harry Gardoon)

[pedaltonekid]

The best way to tune is with your ears. When you have a good core to the sound and it is fully resonating (horn doing the work) you have it where it needs to be.

Don't use a tuner. Some notes need to be played slightly sharp or flat to sound right - depending where they are at in the chord, i.e. 3rd, 5th, etc. If you mindlessly play everything splitting the middle on a tuner it will not sound as good as someone who can listen and adjust accordingly.

Remember a good amateur can play in tune, but professionals can play out of tune together.
_________________
Best Regards, Play Well!!