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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:54 pm Post subject: Mendez -V- Harry James |
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How do you fellas think Harry compares to Mendez on things like "Bumblebee", "Hora Stacato", "Carnival Of Venice", "Concerto for Trumpet"?
I personally think that if Harry had choosen to play "virtuoso" type pieces exclusively he just might have topped Mendez.
I'm especially interested in what Charlie Raymond thinks about this.
chris |
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dan_ostler Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 373 Location: Kemble Ontario Canada
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Just my two cents worth, but Harry had nowhere near the smoothness of Mendez in the technical passages, at least in the albums I have. Terrific trumpet players both, but two different horses. (I'd be very happy to be the second horse in that race _________________ Schilke B4L
WTF (in Blue)
LeBlanc Gozzo 770A, Al Hirt 707A
Olds Mendez, Clark Terry Flugel
Old Ambassador Cornet, Trumpet
Olds Mellophonium
(Is there a pattern emerging here??)
Hanns Hainlein 1632 Replica, MF Firebird
(I guess not......) |
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_bugleboy Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 2865
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Chris,
I've never heard another trumpet player who had clearer definition in his notes, with the kind of brass tone that I prefer, than Rafael Mendez. I'm not a fan of RM's vibrato, but his tone without the vib (as in the Haydn) is great. His tone on Moto Perpetuo (no time for vib on that one) is definitive.
With that said, I don't think I've ever heard any solo by Harry that I liked better by someone else. RM's Bumble Bee is cleaner, but I like Harry's better. RM's Macarena is more spectacular, but I like Harry's better. Harry was the man!
Is there any truth to the story that RM started using a mute for the Bumble Bee after he heard Harry play it open?
Charly |
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AccentOnTrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Both players were virtuosos with playing that not only has influenced generations. Tough call.
Technically, Mendez was more facil (Mendez is unsurpassed technically in my opinion).
However, Harry James is also a legend...A chop pioneer, and just a spectacular all-around player. He was more consistent in the upper register than Mendez, and...
The need to continue for me is pointless, comparing Harry James to Mendez, who do we really think we are to discuss two of the greatest and say who's better like it's high school? |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Charlie,
I've played Harrys "Concerto For Trumpet" many, many times (as I'm sure you have too) But tell me its not humbling to watch the clip of Harry playing it in that movie where he is dressed in army fatigues (Private Buckaroo?)
He plays is faster than greased lightning, and just tosses it off (like he did with EVERTHING he ever played) like it was nothing for him.
What about the way he plays "Hora Stacatto" (Bathing Beauties?) just amazing.
In my opinion he was the greatest ever to pick up a horn.
Chris |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1475 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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I have never posted on a subject like this before because it is so difficult to compare great players without sounding like you are knocking down someone, especially when you adore both players as is the case here. Harry was a great player and a true legend, but I don't think anyone has yet reached the level of technical perfection that Mendez had. Some are very close now, such as the moderator of this forum, but as great as Harry James was, he did not have the technical ability Mendez did. |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | but as great as Harry James was, he did not have the technical ability Mendez did. |
Maybe, maybe not, but Harry sure as hell came pretty close and was the better all around player by far.
Not to take away from any of the great things that Mendez did but I think had Harrry choosen to just concentrate on playing "super technical" pieces like Mendez did he would have at the very least been just as good.
The big problem with Harry was that most people (even trumpet players!) all think of him as the guy who married Betty Grable, was a guest star on the "I Love Lucy Show", and played "You Made Me Love You" and "Sleepy Lagoon". He was so much more than that, he was one of the greatest naturally gifted trumpet virtuosos of all time. He was tearing through Levy and Clarke solos at the age of 9!!!
There wasn't ANYTHING he couldn't play on the trumpet when he was in his prime.
Chris |
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trpt.hick Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 2634
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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I have to agree with Harry James being an absolute monster player. Yes, his technique was unbelievable and his versatility a legend. And how about that
"Hora Staccato" feature in the movie, BATHING BEAUTY??!!
How he could play that clean and fast above high C is a mystery to me.
Question, though....
I know that Dr. Keith Johnson (UNT) was working for years on a complete biography on Harry James. Does anyone know if it is now published? I would love to get it!
Dave Hickman |
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Jecos New Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 7
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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trpt.hick wrote: |
How he could play that clean and fast above high C is a mystery to me.
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He is mentioned in Callet's Trumpet Secrets book.. hes most likely using a forward tongue as pointed out in that book.. |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Harry has been dead since 1983.
The only way to know for sure if Harry used that "foward tongue" is to ask him, and its a little late for that.
Dave,
Surley you must know about Harry's Bio "Trumpet Blues". If you haven't read it I highly reccomend it. The only complaint I have about it is that it didn't go into how he became such a great player enough for me. It was more about his career, his alcoholism, and degenerate gambling.
I'd be real interested in the bio by Kieth Johnson. Do you have any more info on it?
Oh Dave (and all you other Harry fans) there is another book called "Drews Blues" by sax player Drew Page. He grew up with Harry in Texas and later played on Harry band. There are some great stories about Harrys amazing ability in that book.
Chris |
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trpt.hick Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 2634
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Chris,
I know about the Trumpet Blues book, but I'll have to look into the other one.
Keith called me about 7-8 years ago and told me about his idea for doing a biography on James. He said that he had been in touch with James' family and they were willing to help him with it. Since Summit Records (which I founded and ran for 10 years and later owned) had published two biographies....Mendez and Farkas....Keith wanted to know if Summit would have an interest in his book.
Well, it didn't take me but 1.5 seconds to reply "of course!" I know that Johnson spent a couple of years on the book. I think he must have found a bigger publisher (just a guess) or something because he never contacted me again. That has been a while now, and I would think that the book would be finished long ago.
Are there any UNT students out there who could find out for us poor starving Harry James fans?
D. H. |
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Guy NoVa Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2004 Posts: 205 Location: Northern Virginia
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:14 am Post subject: Trumpet Blues |
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I'm a huge Harry James fan. He's the guy that got me started playing trumpet many decades ago. I don't care all that much for his band's sentimental stuff, but when they wanted to they could really swing.
As for the biography, Trumpet Blues, I really agree with Mr. Hollywood. I read the book hoping to learn something about HJ the trumpet player, and what I got instead was a lot of information about HJ the lout, the cad, the drunken gambler. Lordy, how he mistreated women! I'm not sure who was a better tumpet player, Harry or Ralph, but Mendez was a heck of a lot nicer person. That counts for something in my book.
All we get from Trumpet Blues about HJ's music is that he never warmed up -- just opened the case and let it rip -- and (according to Herb Alpert) could play just as well whether drunk or sober; and its a darned good thing he could, too. Oh, and that his band had a book of about 1200 songs (if I recall correctly) and Harry knew every note of every part by memory. Yikes! _________________ _________________
Selmer Concept TT
Xeno RGS
Eclipse Flugel
Courtois Chambord Cornet
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bigaggietrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 70 Location: College Station, TX
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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This is about like comparing rubies and tourquoise- both are beautiful and it just depends on which color you like more.
Yeah, Harry had some problems, but let's just look at the playing. MAN what playing! I have only heard 1 person ever come close to emulating it accurately. It was beautiful. He had full control of the instrument at all times.
Mendez was just as talented. I love listening to him play the Mexican hat dance. He was so perfect technically that you had to wonder if he was human sometimes.
In my opinion, I would probably have to lean towards Harry. Maybe slightly less on the technicals (and that's splitting hairs), but oh that tone. I can listen to it all day and never get tired of it. _________________ Michael Smith
There is nothing so unnatural as the commonplace- Sherlock Holmes
Olds Studio/Laskey 80B/Schilke 14
Olds Ambassador Cornet/7 |
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SatchmoGillespie Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1808 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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I seem to recall reading awhile back that Harry Jr lives in the Dallas area as his mother was married to the late Peanuts Hucko. I know that he was a member of the SMU Mustang Band back in the 60s but I don't know that anybody has kept in touch with him. I'd be curious to know what all technique he picked up from his father. From what I've heard from some of the alumni who were part of the band back then,he was a darn good player in his own right. |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:36 am Post subject: |
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I'd be real curious about that too.
I read in Harrys bio that Harry Jr also played lead in one of the Air Force bands too.
About ten or more years ago I was playing at a jazz festival and one of the other bands was Peanuts Huko. I asked him if he had brought his wife with him, and sure enough there I was having a nice chat with Louise Tobin (formerly Mrs Harry James).
I asked her about Harry and she basically said the same thing as the book said, that he was not much of a husband or father.
Interesting little trivia about one of Harry sons. Jerry Callet told me that he donated one of Harrys horns the the Smithsonian and got himself a 10,000 dollar right off.
Chris |
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Strawdoggy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: Carlisle, PA
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:07 am Post subject: |
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I won't even try to answer the question of who was better. Like two great singers - how do you compare???
Here's one interesting tidbit about HJ that I learned from two local guys that I work with around these parts. Both played lead for Harry in the early seventies at different times. Apparently, when the band took a couple of weeks off of the road, Harry would have the road manager pack up his horn in storage and never touch it while on vacation. The first few gigs back on the road he would pace himself, then be back to his regular powerhouse playing within a few gigs. Inhuman, I tell ya. |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:43 am Post subject: |
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"Two weeks"......
It was more like six weeks!!!!
Harry would take six weeks off every year when he was in Las Vegas. He would play golf, drink, and hang out with show girls, and NEVER TOUCH HIS HORN!
Then he would pick it up 10 min. before his first set on opening night, oil his valves, blow a few notes, and go out and play the show. He would take it easy the first few nights, but still........six weeks off!!!!
Nothing short of amazing.
Chris |
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allstarbugler Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 1350 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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From what I have heard, James did everything while drunk on a bottle of whiskey, while Mendez played "straight". My vote goes to Mendez. |
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