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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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 Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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| kramergfy wrote: | I have been trying to sort out the specifics of the "Early Elkhart" Bachs. Here is what I have gathered, using this forum, and the Bach Loyalist as a reference.
1965 (Corp *no dot* mouthpieces)
* Side-seam bell
* Steel wire round rim (Major departure from the brass "French" bead on Mt. Vernons)
* Two piece valves with nickel silver balusters
* Brass valve guides
* Serial on each valve piston
* Sculpted late Mt. Vernon pinky ring
1970 #50782 (Start of Corp . *large dot* mouthpieces, new tooling)
* Side-seam bell
* Steel wire rim
* Two-piece valve with nickel silver balusters
* Brass valve guides
* No serial on valve pistons
* Sculpted late Mt. Vernon pinky ring
1972-3 #68,xxx
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1492574
* 6 o’clock/7o'clock seam
* Steel wire rim
* Two-piece valves with nickel silver balusters
* Brass valve guides
* No serial on valves
* Sculpted late Mt. Vernon pinky ring
*Fist slide is over/under with a saddle as standard
1977 #121,7xx
* 6 o’clock/7o'clock seam
* Steel wire rim
* One piece brass valve block
* Brass valve guides
* No serial on valves
* Sculpted late Mt. Vernon pinky ring
My probably 1979, #166, 5xx Bach probably comes in between these two categories. Mine has original brass valve guides, but a modern pinky ring.
All the best
Lou
<1980-1990 (modern 180, pre 190)
* 6 o’clock/7o'clock seam
* Brass wire rim
* All brass valves
* Nylon valve guides
* No serial on valves
* Modern pinky ring
Looking for more info:
-More specifics after 1980 in terms of when the rim went back to brass, and the guides became nylon.
-What the bell gauges were in the late Mt. Vernon days, Early Elkhart days, and when/if it changes again afterwards. |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| kramergfy wrote: | | LittleRusty wrote: | When you say “no serial on valves” do you mean on the pistons or the casing?
Edit: dug out my purchased in ‘72 Strad and the pinky ring looks nearly identical to my ~2005 Strad. The foot on the 2005 has sharper corners on the sides of the foot. I am not sure what the difference between a vintage vs modern pinky ring is. |
Serials on the individual pistons is what I was referring to there.. The vintage pinky ring in this case is the one designed in Mt. Vernon and used in Elkhart up to 1980. |
I believe that I have a modern pinky ring on my 1979 Bach. It is the same as far as I'm aware as the one on my 1994 Bach cornet.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2441
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2024 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | The "standard" bell thickness at Mt. Vernon until December of 1963 was 0.020". The Mt. Vernon 180s I have seen have 0.025" bells, which is the standard since day 1 in Elkhart (January 1965). The adoption of 0.020" as a standard does not appear to have been deliberate, but rather just happened by default after WWII. The change to 0.025" on the other hand was, I suspect, part of the bell making plans for Elkhart. What is not clear is if any Mt. Vernon 180s were built with 0.020" bells - there are just so few, and even fewer surviving unaltered. We may not have enough samples left to know that one for certain. |
This old post should be corrected, since it seems to still be kicking.
There are late Mt. Vernon bodies with 0.023" bells (sorry - 0.025" turned out to be mis-information, or confusion on the part of the employee interviewed), but I now believe all of those were blocks/bodies made at Mt. Vernon but bells made at the Main Street plant.
The last of the Mt. Vernon built horns all had 0.020" bells, as can be seen in the table listing these on pages 168-172 in Vincent Bach and his Trumpets.
I should have remembered this post when I built that table, but it had slipped my mind. So here is corrected information.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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