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bean_counter Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2002 Posts: 125 Location: Oswego, IL
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:46 pm Post subject: British-style Brass Band mpc |
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Hi,
I just joined a brass band, am playing back row (2nd cornet). Using a Besson 1000 cornet I picked up for cheap. I'll buy something better soon, but it's not a bad horn for small $.
Background: comeback player, my usual trumpet mouthpiece is a Schilke 18 or 18B4. I tried smaller (Schilke 14A4) in a church band that played challenging (to me) commercial style material, but I my chops would "shut down" after a while. "Solved" the problem with the 18B4.
Based on that experience, I started on cornet on a big Denis Wick 2B. Decent sound, endurance just ok, really nice low/mid register where I generally live, but anything over the staff is iffy. Reading the archives I guess that's not too unusual on a 2B.
I've only been at it three weeks, but my thought is that I may have over-compensated and I am using too big a mouthpiece on cornet. Any suggestions on which direction should I go next? Move up a Wick number? Curry BBC? Or? _________________ Kevin Mc
Strad 180s37 (07 'True Bach'), Schilke 18 or 18B4
anon OTS Bb Saxhorn, Berliner valves c. 1860
Eclipse cornet (Yellow, Bauerfeind) DW 4B Heritage
Cousnon clairon Bb
'60s Besson tenor horn DW 3 |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2360 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Why not a Schilke cornet mouthpiece with the same rim? I personally like to have the same rim from setup to setup, makes going from instrument to instrument easier.
I like Curry rims - an exellent blend of function, comfort, and consistency. But they would probably feel noticabley different from a Schilke ( as well as Wick - which to me would be a drastic change). With my cornet setup, I probably use the Curry BBC the least, DC, TC then BBC or Vintage -VC.
Then, there are a ton of options from a number of makers. As best you can you should experiment - there's no telling what will work the best for you. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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coraltrpt Regular Member
Joined: 18 Oct 2016 Posts: 88
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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I have to play cornet - not by choice. Switching between horns during concerts is a pain. However, I started using a Stork 2C after going from a 4B and a 2B. Both were too deep for me. The Stork 2C feels a little less awkward and more trumpet-like. I was still able to blend well with our principal player, who is a born-and-raised salvation army cornet player. |
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Arbanator Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2008 Posts: 115 Location: McLean VA
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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A Wick 4 no letter might be the most common in Britain. Pickett has a line of British cornet mouthpieces designed to be easier to play but reaching for a similar sound. I moved from the Wick 4 to the Pickett 3 and have been happy. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Based on that experience, I started on cornet on a big Denis Wick 2B. Decent sound, endurance just ok, really nice low/mid register where I generally live, but anything over the staff is iffy. Reading the archives I guess that's not too unusual on a 2B. |
Choices. The 2B is the closest to perfection in a cornet mouthpiece for BBB that I've ever found. If you can play that diameter, no need to look further. Gorgeous sound. Depth, response and range are all within your grasp. Just a matter of time. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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bean_counter Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2002 Posts: 125 Location: Oswego, IL
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you.
I will likely stick with the Wick 2B through the early December Christmas concert, see how that works out, then if needed I’ll look at the Schilke concert series 18E. I didn’t realize they made as a standard item a brass band style mpc with an 18 rim.
The local shop is going to carry Pickett starting next year, I might try them too.
Thanks again! _________________ Kevin Mc
Strad 180s37 (07 'True Bach'), Schilke 18 or 18B4
anon OTS Bb Saxhorn, Berliner valves c. 1860
Eclipse cornet (Yellow, Bauerfeind) DW 4B Heritage
Cousnon clairon Bb
'60s Besson tenor horn DW 3 |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5468 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hi bean_counter
In my experience, Besson cornets and a Denis Wick mouthpiece are a very good match, and really compliment each other. Although fairly large in terms of cup diameter, I don't think that the cup diameter of the Denis Wick 2B is too extreme, and the depth of the B cup is reasonable.
You could try the Denis Wick 3B. Although the quoted cup diameter is 16.75mm, I find a Denis Wick 3B at least feel like it has a larger cup diameter than my large variant Bach 3C trumpet mouthpiece, which according to someone who put a copy of my rim on a Denis Wick 4B cornet mouthpiece and adjusted the diameter/shape of the top of the Denis Wick 4B cup to match, has a diameter larger than a typical Bach 1 1/2C.
The Denis Wick 3B is therefore not at all small, and could be worth a try. My understanding is however that the Denis Wick 2B has a nicer sound, and I keep meaning to get one for myself.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Three weeks, come on. |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:37 am Post subject: |
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In my experience the best alternatives to Wick are Warburton's BC cups/backbores and Pickett's British cornet mouthpieces. Both get a nice rich sound while adding enough resistance to improve articulations and endurance. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | The Denis Wick 3B is therefore not at all small, and could be worth a try. My understanding is however that the Denis Wick 2B has a nicer sound, and I keep meaning to get one for myself.
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Ah yes, the quirks of any mouthpiece system. The Wick 3 is different than the other sizes. It does not sound or play like a slightly smaller 2 size. It is brighter in sound than either the 2 or 4. Still a good mouthpiece, but different.
There is something special with the 2B. It has a more Wick no letter sound with the ease of play of a B. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | Quote: | The Denis Wick 3B is therefore not at all small, and could be worth a try. My understanding is however that the Denis Wick 2B has a nicer sound, and I keep meaning to get one for myself.
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Ah yes, the quirks of any mouthpiece system. The Wick 3 is different than the other sizes. It does not sound or play like a slightly smaller 2 size. It is brighter in sound than either the 2 or 4. Still a good mouthpiece, but different.
There is something special with the 2B. It has a more Wick no letter sound with the ease of play of a B. |
Hi,
The Wick 2 is larger than the 3. The diameter decreases as the number increases- so 1 is largest and 5 is smallest.
Best |
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Arbanator Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2008 Posts: 115 Location: McLean VA
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Besson ships its Prestige cornet with an Alliance 2A mouthpiece. It's a good piece. |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: |
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LSOfanboy wrote: | Richard III wrote: | Quote: | The Denis Wick 3B is therefore not at all small, and could be worth a try. My understanding is however that the Denis Wick 2B has a nicer sound, and I keep meaning to get one for myself.
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Ah yes, the quirks of any mouthpiece system. The Wick 3 is different than the other sizes. It does not sound or play like a slightly smaller 2 size. It is brighter in sound than either the 2 or 4. Still a good mouthpiece, but different.
There is something special with the 2B. It has a more Wick no letter sound with the ease of play of a B. |
Hi,
The Wick 2 is larger than the 3. The diameter decreases as the number increases- so 1 is largest and 5 is smallest.
Best |
Yes, but the rim and perceived ID with the 3 (alpha?) doesn't fit evenly within the line - the 2 feels like a bigger 4, but the 3 is its own weird beast. |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2669 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: |
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There are common solutions to the seemingly never ending With mouthpiece issues everyone hears about all the time.
The first is to just keep on plugging away at it, hoping you will get it to work in the end.
The second, which most try and so many mouthpiece makers have accommodated is to move to a more user friendly brand. I would go down this path.
Frankly, if it isn't working after 3 weeks, then it isn't going to work. One should get an almost immediate feeling that a mouthpiece is going to work for you, not feel like you need to spend weeks or months working with it and accommodating your playing to get it to work!
You will need to do a bit of a search, but will end up with a far more happy setup. Go with a deep Schilke cup matching your current rim as a starter. Then the maker's deep cup cornet mouthpieces which match your rim. For me, it is the rim that needs to work, the cup etc. can all be adjusted to help you create the sound you want...
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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bean_counter Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2002 Posts: 125 Location: Oswego, IL
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Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Thanks again to everybody for the replies. I have been remiss in updating where I ended up going.
With all the activity of the Christmas season, I just didn't get around to doing anything. Then at the first rehearsal for the Spring concert, I was invited to audition for the front row in two week's time. *Gulp* So, I went to the local music store and they had a Wick 4B Heritage in stock. I thought why not give it a try.
There's certainly a reason it's popular. It worked for me, and quite well. I would still like something a bit wider, but at this point I don't think I'll mess with success for a while. I played at the end of the front row for the last two concerts, and this fall I'll be on Repiano.
I'm probably in the minority, but I really, really like the flat rims and undercut of the Wick cornet mouthpieces. _________________ Kevin Mc
Strad 180s37 (07 'True Bach'), Schilke 18 or 18B4
anon OTS Bb Saxhorn, Berliner valves c. 1860
Eclipse cornet (Yellow, Bauerfeind) DW 4B Heritage
Cousnon clairon Bb
'60s Besson tenor horn DW 3 |
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NERO Regular Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 48
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Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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For a BBB besson and wick is a perfect match. The 2 rim with a deep cup is very big. Difficult to play in my opinion. I prefer smaller rim. DW 4 and 4b when I need to play higher... Easy to switch with no embochoure changes. |
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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 624
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Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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I would try an Alliance 2AW (made by Wick). More comfortable rim than a Wick but still with that BB cornet sound. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1491 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:50 am Post subject: |
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trumpet56 wrote: | I would try an Alliance 2AW (made by Wick). More comfortable rim than a Wick but still with that BB cornet sound. |
And I can make things even more complicated: why not try the Wick Ultra series? A 1 1/2 or 1 1/4 C might fit? But then I am the guy who could never stand the common no letter Wicks, or variants of them. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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trumpet_cop Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 242
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Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | trumpet56 wrote: | I would try an Alliance 2AW (made by Wick). More comfortable rim than a Wick but still with that BB cornet sound. |
And I can make things even more complicated: why not try the Wick Ultra series? A 1 1/2 or 1 1/4 C might fit? But then I am the guy who could never stand the common no letter Wicks, or variants of them. |
Is the ultra series deep enough to achieve the proper sound? Genuinely serious question, as I had intended to get one for orchestral cornet work but if it is too deep then I will continue searching. _________________ Good Ol' Boy ID#3624360 |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:22 am Post subject: |
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trumpet_cop wrote: | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | trumpet56 wrote: | I would try an Alliance 2AW (made by Wick). More comfortable rim than a Wick but still with that BB cornet sound. |
And I can make things even more complicated: why not try the Wick Ultra series? A 1 1/2 or 1 1/4 C might fit? But then I am the guy who could never stand the common no letter Wicks, or variants of them. |
Is the ultra series deep enough to achieve the proper sound? Genuinely serious question, as I had intended to get one for orchestral cornet work but if it is too deep then I will continue searching. |
The ultra series is fairly deep... but the sound is noticeably brighter than a Wick B cup.
I used one as a soprano cornet mouthpiece (in championship section) for a while and it worked quite well for that - I tried it on Bb cornet and nearly impaled the poor horns opposite me... |
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